`Political' Coins

Yes, coins and politics can be `on topic'.

Tokens have been used in the past for getting political messages across, but what about *actual* coins ?

(Note: i'm not talking about tokens that have been created to look like coins....such as the famous Monica Lewinski `$1/4')

I'm aware of some instances where coins have been `carved' to portray political satire, the one that most springs to mind being the general disdain for Napoleon III of France after his humiliating military defeat at the hands of the Germans (Sedan). The event resulted in his surrendering the entire army of over 80,000. He was certainly not the military genius of his namesake.

The first coin (top right) is there purely as an example of what a French 10 centimes coin looks like.

Top left shows a 10c coin carved to make Nap III look like the Pope.

Bottom left shows a hand carved image of Nap III wearing a German helmut suggesting that he behaved treasonously.

The bottom right is a much more `sophisticated' carving done presumably with some form of engraving tool.

Having had some lengthy correspondences with collectors in France, many coins such as the hand carved one were apparently created by the prisoners of war and exchanged with their German captors for such luxuries as food and tobacco.

In the months to come after Sedan, Napoleon's political adversaries were to pick up on these examples of `trench art' and minted similar designs onto blank 10 centimes coins. Such pieces look very similar to the engraved example and usually have Napoleon smoking a pipe. The
Eagle on the reverse finds itself transformed into a pretty tame looking `vampire' but its enough to get the political message over to the populace that Napoleon III drained the life blood out of France.

I've also got a couple of Kruger shillings (South Africa) somewhere where old man Kruger has been recarved to show him wearing a smoking hat and jacket and smoking a pipe. These were made by Brtish troops who obviously had time on their hands during the Boer war.

Anyone else know of any instances when actual coins have been carved up for political purposes?

 

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Yep i sure do...

Except i don't have a decent picture of it anymore that i can find, there's a really bad one here...

http://www.coinpeople.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=3995


It's george IV smoking a pipe. Obviously someone decided to depict his gluttonous lifestyle on a coin.

 

A good example of politically inspired art work.

Geo IV had a close circle of hangers on (usually people he was heavily indebted to), outside of which he just wasn't a particularly popular chap.

 

I picked that one up fairly cheaply, i hung onto it for a year or two and then i sold it. Part of me wishes i'd hung onto it actually. It used to amuse me.

 

I think your one is the only one i've seen of that type. I guess there's either not many of these about or they tend to stay in collections. Problem with coins like these is that it's difficult to tell exactly when the adjustments to the surface were actually made, although unlikely to have been done outwith the time period concerned.

Different matter completely, but along the same lines. I've been trying to get hold of an `original' Hobo nickel for quite some time now. It's one of those things that is on my `wants' list. I must confess that i'm possibly being a bit too choosey, but it's gotr to be THE one for my collection. The task isn't made any easier by the fact that there seems to be a real cottage industry in the US producing them even as I type. :-(

"A genuine Hobo nickel sir? We can do these to your own design choic...oh and yes we do take American Express, Visa or cash in US $'s''

Ian

 

About five years ago I missed my chance sitting at my computer about 3 am my time doing a manual `snipe'. Ebay experienced congestion about five minutes before the end of the auction and try as i might i couldn't place a bid. It just kept `hanging'. A bit like my head was when everything cleared and the Hobo nickel had gone for $35. My `snipe' was for $95. It was one of those occasions where deja vue kicks in and says `you've been here before haven't you' and all you can do is kick yourself for trying to be super smart when you don't have the technology to support you. Of course i use a snipe tool now, and although it's not everything, at least I don't have to wait until 3 am at the keyboard to exercise a `snipe' bid.

Have you ever come across any US (or foreign) coins that have been carved with political / satirical messages?

 

From what I can see, it's looking like the practice is peculiar to the French and British. I haven't personally seen any other examples although Christian Feldhaus has made mention of political statements having been made carved into the Potsdam (no date) type German 5 marks of 1934-35. I haven't seen any in the flesh however. I had assumed such `coins' would have been more prevalent than appears to be the case.

Ah well. yet another sphere where i'm likely to be one of a handful of sad collectors past the stage of help (it's getting lonelier in this anorak i'm wearing by the second). Mind you, the upside is that there's probably little competition for these things when they do turn up and most collectors will just turn up their noses and treat them as `damaged' (hopefully!) .

Ian

 

I think they do generally treat it as damage, it could be harder thoughbecause of that fact. They might think they have no collector value so they might throw them into that forgotten box in the attic with the rest of the junk coins. Hence why they don't come on the market much.

 

Seems to be the case that most have been binned. Every successive change of coinage makes that possibility more probable so slowly but surely the population of such carved pieces dwindles. Christian says (in relation to the Potsdam 5 marks) that they used to circulate at the time (1935/6 that is) but banks refused to accept them. When someone realised that by not accepting them at the bank the anti-nazi messages on them were being kept in circulation the bank policy was rescinded. That measure (which effectively filtered them out of circulation), along with an intervening war are probably the reasons why there aren't all that many carved Potsadam (no date type) 5 marks around today.

Ah well. At least the fewer there are the more `valuable' they become (he said wearing his `wishful thinking' smile).

 

This is one of my favorite topics, and very timely for me, as I have a coin carved as depicted on the way from France as we speak. Mine has the spiked helmet added, as well as work done on the reverse, and the word “SEDAN” stamped on the reverse. The skilled artisans did the helmet thing, but a more common reaction to this subject was simply to stamp “SEDAN” on the coin. (It was a humiliating French defeat at Sedan that prompted these satire coins.)

I have a large collection of political coins representing samples of ones that I have made, all in the form of counterstamps (letters). I have not yet progressed to carving, but I hope to get a Dremel tool at some point and give it a try. These coins are either American or most commonly (lately) euro coins.

One of my favorites (that I did not make myself) is the Buffalo nickel I have that bears a political statement about President Wilson. There is an arrow pointing to the (male) Buffalo’s you-know-what, and “WILSON” stamped next to the arrow.

I also have an old US large cent with a pipe carved in Liberty’s mouth but I am not sure that was a political statement. The most famous US coin of this nature is the large cent with the E in CENT altered. I had heard that this was a Civil War era political statement, but I am not sure.

 

Good on yah! BTW It is most unusual to find both sides `treated', but not unheard of. It usually alters the eagle to make it look like an owl with attitude (vampire). The one I show bottom left simply doesn't leave enough metal to afford any work being done on the reverse, although it is fairly intact. The ones top left and bottom right could suffer the reverse being engraved or stamped.

Can you post images of your one when it arrives with you? I'd like to see what it looks like.

Whew!! I was beginning to wonder why it was that it was only the brits and french that seemed to have any examples of `political' work on coins.

I've heard of the altered spelling of `cent' before now but not seen an example. A bit coarse, but clever with it. I've never heard of the buffalo one before now though. Mind you, not much chance of finding one here on the east coast of scotland. Now these are certainly examples of what i'm on about. My faith in my fellow man is slowly being restored here. The smoking a pipe thing seems to be a `put it in your pipe and smoke it' type message. Sadly , exactly what they are being told to put in their pipe tends to be a `national' thing which is lost on outsiders without having to do some significant research.

 

I am pretty technologically challenged, plus I have a firewall and restrictions at work that block out almost everything (I’ve even lost eBay access). But, if someone wants to do me a favor and find item 3941654905 on eBay and steal the photos, that would be great. It was on the French eBay (www.ebay.fr) but I think the item numbers are valid on all ebay sites.

These French altered coins and the tokens of the same design are steady sellers on eBay. I am looking to get some more of each, but I am going slowly since I am not sure what the true price range is. Seems to be somewhere between 10 and 20 euros.

BTW, nit that I am looking for any competition, but I think the French ebay is a good place to look for these coins. So far, I go to “Monnaie” (coins) and use the keyword “Sedan”. Since they all started in France, there are plenty left there, and since the site is in French most people around the world would not bother with it. Just make sure they ship outside of France, and make sure that they either use PAYPAL, or will accept cash (you might have to get some euros from the bank).

 

Neat! You did really well at that price. These usually go for a lot more (many for over €65).

Here's the images of the one you just bought. Interesting `sash' curling round the eagle. It's a pity that the actual date of the coin was obliterated. I think that's what has kept the price down. Collectors I know in france look for date and mm as prime requirements for them. What a thought! collecting them by date and mm!! :-O. A bit too much for even me .

I use french ebay all the time for buying silver jetons which occupy most of my collecting time these days. I've never thought of having a static search for `Sedan' however. I'll try not to stand on your feet too.

Ian

 

Thanks a million for the photos. I had forgotten some of the details, such as the date. I think the date was changed to reflect the date of the military defeat. Maybe the old date is still legible in person.

I am not quite sure what happened with the eagle - some work on his head. I will have to check it out when it comes.

I mainly bought this one because it has “Sedan” stamped on it, apparently in a single stamp format (not individual letters). This is what caught my eye since I have a couple coins simply marked Sedan, and I figured the counterstamp helps to date it as an original. I will be looking for others, so maybe this will be the first of the crowd.

 

I'm pretty sure that I can see the engraved `sash' curling around the eagle breast and up the back of its head (in one direction) and down past it's tail alongside the mm (in the other direction). The original coin of course doesn't have a sash on it at all. Given that the `sash' has been engraved on, i'm 99.99% certain that the word `Sedan' is also engraved rather than a counterstamp. With all that working on the coin, I just can't see it being counterstamped. The force necessary to create a counterstamp would have left it's evidence on the obverse.

The non-battle of Sedan was indeed 1870. The date features on the struck version.

I'd appreciate your views on the coin once you can eyeball it. Scans (especially the ones via ebay's `ipix') aren't anywhere near as good as being able to turn the coin about in the light to catch different aspects.

As I said, I think you did really well to get it at that price. You must have a trace of scottish somewhere in your heritage! Happy hunting! ;-)

Ian

 

I got the coin yesterday, and it is a beauty.

The engraving in the helmet is outstanding and clearly the work of an expert who had the right tools.

The date is entirely chiseled off, and the “1870” is added by means of individual hand stamps (slight distortion also visible on reverse). The sash on the reverse goes across the front of the eagle and around his neck, as you suggested. The “SEDAN” is definitely stamped, almost certainly by a single word stamp (not individual letters). The distortion from that is barely visible on the obverse - mainly hidden by the helmet and chin strap.

These coins fascinate me now, so I expect to be collecting more. This example would lead me to believe that two people were involved in the alteration of this coin. The helmet is so finely engraved that it does not seem that the same person would have done the reverse or the date. So, maybe a jeweler and his apprentice?

There are so many of them around (relatively speaking) that they must have represented a small industry at the time. I suppose they were sold as mementos rather than placed into circulation, since there was so much workmanship involved. A lot of work went into these, and by some very skilled engravers.

 

(Reden ist Silber. Schweigen ist Gold.)

 

The best I can do is use my general knowledge of coins, engraving type styles, handstamp letter styles, etc. to make my own judgment.

The SEDAN is counterstamped with a single stamp, not individual letters. I have had my own metal stamps made and they cost 50 to 100 $ for a stamp like this. This is far too much effort for a forger unless he was going to make hundreds of them. And, if he does, it will be obvious.

The engraving work is not by means of a Dremel tool or electric pencil – it is chiseled. This is a dying art, and not at all common today.

While the typestyle of the SEDAN is simple, the typestyle of the numbers used in the date stamps are not of this era.

The coin I bought cost under 20 euros delivered. While one Chinaman could make one coin at this price and probably feed his family for a month, he would not have the motivation unless contracted by someone in Europe to do it (where I bought it from). And, if someone in Europe was trying to get a forgery business going they would have to contract for a lot of them to make it worthwhile. And, there are not THAT many on the market. (When I say these are common, I am probably speaking more about the tokens that were struck, not the modified original coins.)

So….the best anyone can do with “altered” coins is to look at the evidence and judge accordingly. Experts do this all the time to decide if a piece of furniture is an 18th century original or an 19th century copy. While I am not an expert in alterations of coins, I have quite a bit of knowledge and am willing to feel reasonably secure for a 20 euro item. I would never pay an exorbitant amount for a counterstamped or altered coin due to the fact that if people will pay that much, the opportunities for forgers and the incidences of forgery will dramatically increase.

On a separate note…once I bought a cheapo sent of wooden nesting dolls like the Russians make. It was made in China, though, and that was obvious, as all the Soviet leaders pictured had a slight slant to their eyes (no kidding). Unless the Asian artisan is an expert in the field of the things he is copying, he will give himself away. And on my coin I do not think the profit margin or volume is high enough to employ an artisan of that caliber to forge so many realistic elements on a 15 euro (retail) coin.

I won’t even raise the issue of the Austrian pfennig I recently bought that has a swastika counterstamped on it. You and I both know that such a stamp could have been added yesterday. But…I know that even making or stamping a swastika stamp is a crime in Austria (where I bought the coin from), so the risk to the seller is pretty great. Also, unless he is selling a boatload of them, then the profit is not worth the cost or risk of making a metal stamp and then applying it to one or two old coins.

On another occasion I bought a set of counterstamped coins, one English, one Irish, one showing” IRA” and one showing the name of a Protestant militant group. I immediately was suspicious why a dealer would happen to have a “matched set”, all in the same typestyle, from opposite political sides. It cost me a few dollars but was well worth the lesson as it helped me to refine my intuition and judgment.

Collecting these things is one big challenge that makes you use your mind, which his why I enjoy it.