Okay. We need to talk about Katz...

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Harry G, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Meander

    Meander Well-Known Member

    I am not ignoring anything. I prefer to talk about coins and not about how the dealers conduct their business. At the same time, I have to admit that the constant change of name of that auction house and their legal place of establishment dont inspire confidence. I mainly take issue with how this thread developed. It was about fakes in Katz until a guy waltzes in and shouts "Lansky is a fake seller". Then @galba68 states "unbelievable how many fakes are in there" without providing any arguments besides that he doesnt like the style. And then @kirispupis follows with "no wonder considering they are established in Eastern Europe" and "we should probably assume all of them fakes". In the end it seems like all the coins are genuine and well pedigreed. So I think @acsearch.info said it best in his reply "youre not helping anyone by condemning authentic coins".
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  3. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but if I see two other well-respected members of this forum specify multiple items at an auction as fake, and then I see that the auction house is registered in Serbia, I'm going to make that call 100% of the time. That's just the reality of the situation today.

    So, even though it now appears that the coins questioned are now genuine, I'm not apologizing for my statement. I still believe this auction is a sham and I intend to stay far away.

    However, it does appear that my original statement was incorrect, and that this is not a dealer in fakes but instead likely a quality money-laundering business with years of experience. I do wonder how many of the coins in the auction are actually on hand.

    I don't see how I'm "not helping anyone" by sharing that paranoia, by questioning why a high-end specialist in ancients would mistake the mint/issuer of a coin, by reminding that this company has a short history marked by a lot of chaos, and by remarking that the owner was recently arrested for money laundering.

    I've found great value in this group in which dealers are trustworthy and how to identify fake coins. Nevertheless, I always take in the data and then decide. I don't always agree with what's said, and I would expect anyone interested in purchasing with Katz or Lansky to digest the data presented here and make your own call. After all, it's your money.
    DonnaML likes this.
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    This is where we will have to continue to disagree. I do not care who the fake seller is or where he comes from. I do not care how many genuine coins he has intermixed with the fakes. I would prefer that those genuine coins be sold wholesale after the fake seller has gone out of business or be reconsigned by their owners who, hopefully, will use a better auction next time. We are not condemning the coins; we are condemning the sale in which they appear. It is not like we are saying a resource is worthless because it does not flag or remove fakes found in their listings even when the auction house withdraws the lot. It is a valuable tool to be used with care and not a safe place to go for information by beginners. We must either know the coins, know the seller and also trust our sources for information.
    All fakes; all the same fake:
    Are there others to question on those pages? That is your decision.

    I do agree that it is unfortunate that the Katz thread was diluted by being left behind to become an 'all coins are fake' thread. It would have been better to start another thread if there is question about a different seller. The fact remains that we all would be better if those who set themselves up in business as dealers in ancient coins were both honest and capable. When we buy real coins from sellers who are not both honest and capable, we are part of the problem, not part of the solution. The genuine coins will survive; the fakesellers need not.
  5. Jovian363

    Jovian363 Well-Known Member

    This is just one, clearly not the worst, example of unabashed statistical discrimination bordering on racism that has plagued this thread and many more on this forum. While inappropriate discussions on politics, gender, race and other sensitive issues are rightly banned and moderated, members are allowed to claim that the sellers are probably dishonest because of their location. Ironically, most genuine ancient coins come from these 'distrustful' countries.
    Ardatirion, DCCR and Meander like this.
  6. Theoderic

    Theoderic Active Member

    Please, just stop with the "racism" nonsense. This has absolutely nothing to do with that. Anyone with even a passing interest in ancient coin collecting is well aware of the immense amount of fakes coins being produced and peddled from certain countries - Serbia and Bulgaria having the dubious distinction of topping that list. Anyone making weak claims to the contrary is merely flying in the face of reason.
    zadie, Clavdivs, Harry G and 4 others like this.
  7. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    Bulgaria making fake Roman coins… probably still angry about Basil II :angelic:
  8. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    We discussed the recent Lansky auction. We concluded that the coins were on the whole genuine. However, has anybody looked the actual prices. They are quite crazy.

    Somebody paid EUR 280 for this coin here

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 15.48.28.png

    This is my exemplar, which I just bought on Ebay for a not dirt-cheap EUR 80.

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 15.45.55.png

    Or this one at EUR 1000

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 15.55.29.png

    Compared to a similar piece from my collection, which I bought for EUR 160 (but more than 10 years ago)

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 15.56.37.png

    The siliqua below is very nice, but EUR 2200 is 5 to 10 times overpaid:

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 15.58.33.png

    I got the piece below for 280 EUR, which is a rather low price.

    Screenshot 2021-06-18 at 16.21.34.png

    So overall, at least some of the prices went quite crazy at this auction.
  9. Heliodromus

    Heliodromus Well-Known Member

    Hopefully whoever bought that Crispus bought the "dark green patina" description not the picture, but either way the price was absurd. There was also a GENIO POPVLI ROMANI that went for over $600 if I recall... gotta wonder if these were real buyers.

    The fine print on that auction was interesting too... Per his LinkedIn page the proprietor seems to be based in Paris, which may explain the insistence that not only would all complaints be handled per Serbian law, but also explicitly noting that French law would NOT apply.
    DonnaML likes this.
  10. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    Wow, great sleuthing, @Heliodromus! That definitely closes the loop for me!
  11. romismatist

    romismatist Well-Known Member

    @Tejas, all your coins look genuine, but the first coin you show from Lansky seems fake. The style is quite off. Or am I missing something?
  12. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Lot 180 also struck me as odd, but given the provenance to 1988, I'm inclined to think that it is just a particularly strange Lyon style coin.
  13. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Did you check that provenance? I do not have that sale catalog.
  14. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    No I haven't. Warren checked the provenance for some of the coins and found them to be true. I'm not sure though, if this coin was one of them.
  15. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    Lot 180, the Crispus, was one I checked and the provenance was correct. Nevertheless, the price was, in my opinion, far too high.
    Tejas likes this.
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