My first Antioch tetradrachm of Caracalla, and the meaning of "Delta-Epsilon"

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, May 15, 2022.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I think I mentioned that I won a couple of coins at the May 5 Roma Numismatics auction. They arrived very quickly from the UK via DHL Express, and here's my write-up of the first one. It isn't in the absolutely greatest condition (for example, some of the legend is missing), but it's still more than good enough for me, with a portrait I really like. It also inspired me to do some research on the meaning of the letters Delta and Epsilon across the reverse fields; the results are presented in one of the footnotes.

    Caracalla Billon Tetradrachm, COS. IV, AD 213-217 [McAlee pp. 6, 270: probably ca. 216-217; see third fn. below], Antioch ad Orontem, Seleucis and Pieria,* Syria Province. Obv. Laureate head right, [ΑΥΤ]•Κ•Μ•Α• •ΑΝΤΩΝЄΙΝΟC [CЄΒ] / Rev. Eagle with wreath in beak, head right, and wings spread, standing facing on leg and thigh of sacrificial animal,** ΔΗΜΑΡX•ЄΞ• ΥΠΑ• ΤΟ• Δ• [equivalent of TR P COS IV (fourth consulship)] around, •Δ•-• Δ • [Delta – Epsilon***] across upper fields. McAlee 681 (ill. p. 271), Prieur 224, Bellinger 19 [Alfred R. Bellinger, The Syrian Tetradrachms of Caracalla and Macrinus, American Numismatic Society (Numismatic Studies No. 3, New York, 1940)]. 13.49 g., 25 mm., 12 h. Purchased from Roma Numismatics Ltd., E-Auction 96, 5 May 2022, Lot 739.


    *According to, "a district of northwest Syria [Province], bordering the Mediterranean, just north of Phoenicia.” If this is correct, then “Seleucis and Pieria” is to be distinguished from the city of “Seleucia in Pieria,” Greek for Seleucia by the Sea, the seaport for Antioch ad Orontes (see [If anyone knows whether I'm right that one is a district and the other a city, please weigh in!]

    **See McAlee p. 216 for a discussion of the “eagle on leg and thigh of sacrificial animal” motif, introduced under Hadrian:


    ***The Delta and Epsilon across the reverse fields appeared for the first time on this type and McAlee 682 (the same as 681 except for the draped & cuirassed bust on the obverse). See McAlee p. 6, quoted in full below. For the significance of those letters, see McAlee p. 270 n. 131 (footnoting McAlee 681), explaining that “the letters ΔЄ each have a dot to either side. They probably stand for ‘Δ ЄΠΑΡΧЄIΧΩN’ (of the four eparchies, thereby signifying that the coins were valid currency throughout the province of Syria.” See also the discussion at McAlee p. 265, using the presence of ΔЄ to narrow down the probable dates of the types bearing it: “All of Caracalla’s billon tetradrachms are dated COS IV (213-217), but most of them were probably struck during 215-217, when the emperor was present in person in the east and preparations for the Parthian campaign were underway. . . . The tetradrachms with ΔЄ are very similar to the Antiochene tetradrachms of Macrinus, Caracalla’s successor, so they must have been struck at the end of Caracalla’s reign, c. 216-217. The coins without ΔЄ were probably struck somewhat earlier, and are here dated to c. 214-215, although they may not have commenced until 215, when Caracalla arrived in Antioch. The coins with ΔЄ may have been produced for civilian use, as opposed to military pay. They were probably struck at the same time as the special wartime series of tetradrachms discussed below, which do not have the letters ΔЄ.”

    McAlee’s full elaboration of his position regarding the significance of the Delta-Epsilon can be found at pp. 5-6 of his book. Note particularly the final paragraph, stating that the letters ΔЄ “first appeared on tetradrachms of Caracalla which were probably struck during 216-217 (nos. 681-682), at the same time as a special wartime series of tetradrachms (nos. 683-694) which did not have the letters ΔЄ”:


    McAlee’s book was published in 2007. Barbara Lichocka takes a different position from McAlee on the significance of the Delta-Epsilon in her 2011 article "Delta-Epsilon issues of Elagabalus and Severus Alexander," at pp. 287-323 of the book Classica Orientalia: Essays Presented to Wiktor Andrzej Daszewski on his 75th Birthday (Polish Center of Mediterranean Archaeology, University of Warsaw, Nov. 2011). See pp. 293-295:

    “The interpretation of the meaning of the letters on the reverse is controversial. A fairly common reading has ΔЄ standing for Δημαρχικής Eξουσίας, equivalent of tribunitia potestas (see Westholm 1936: 135; 1937: 530; Hill 1972: 235 note 3, Elagabalus; Lichocka 1999: 176–177; Amandry 1993: 17; Parks 2005: 132; Pitsillides 2004: 40 No. 77).

    Indication of tribunal power in abbreviated form, TR P, TR POT was common on Roman imperial coins, but ordinarily with a numeral to express successive resumptions of office. For the first year the numeral was omitted (see RIC IV/2: 27–42, 69, 71–80, 90–91). Although omission of the numeral on coins struck also after the first regnal year, for example, on the obverses of bronzes of Vespasian (RIC II: 66), has been noted, it should be emphasized that the title appeared always together with other titles of the emperor as part of the legend.

    The composition of coins of the ΔЄ type is similar to the composition of Antioch coins of the SC type. D. Waagé noted the similarity in fabric and style of ΔЄ and SC types (Waagé 1949: 57). It could have been a conscious reference to issues which at least theoretically referred to the Senate’s decision, assuming of course that SC was meant to denote Senatus Consulto (Kraft 1962: passim; Butcher 2004: 235, 385; McAlee 2007: 288). H.R. Baldus believed this similarity of composition to be of significance for the
    interpretation of the letters ΔЄ, which are also present additionally on the SC coins and could have meant acceptance by local authority, e.g., Δ(όγμα) Ἐ(κκλησίας) or Δ(ήμῳ) Ἔ(δοξεν) (Baldus 1973: 446–447).

    E. Meyer’s opinion that the letters ΔЄ refer to the four Syrian eparchies of imperial cult (Meyer 1991: 69–70) was shared by K. Butcher (2004: 233–235; 2005: 148, note 27) and by R. McAlee (2007: 5–6, 266, 289). An inscription from Gerasa dated to AD 119/120 attests to the use of the Greek term “four eparchies” and mentions Antioch as their metropolis (“ἱερασάμενος τῶν τεσσάρον ἐπαρχειῶν ἑν Ἀντιοχείᾳ τῇ μητροπόλοι”, Meyer 1991: 69). Issues from Tarsus in Cilicia could favor the interpretation that ΔЄ stands for “four eparchies”. The title of metropolis of three eparchies, granted to the town in AD 198/199, was recorded on the town’s coins in partial ab[1]breviation: TAPCON MHTPO TΩN Γ EΠΑΡΧΙΩΝ (Meyer 1991: 72). But was ΔЄ actually an abbreviated recording of “four eparchies” in Greek terms?. . . . [Discussion of appearance of Delta-Epsilon on bronze coins produced in Laodicea ad Mare omitted.]

    The letters ΔЄ occurred in Antioch issues earlier than on coins of Laodicea ad
    Mare. In the times of Caracalla Antioch struck bronzes with the letters Δ beneath and Є above SC within a laurel wreath (e.g. SNG Copenhagen 232). Macrinus continued the type (e.g. SNG Copenhagen 233–235). Under Elagabalus a new composition appeared with the ΔЄ placed variably above or below a large SC, sometimes with an eagle or a ram as well (SNG Copenhagen 242–247; Butcher 2004: 384–385; McAlee 2007: 266, 288–289). Small letters ΔЄ can be seen on reverses of bronzes of another type: an eagle with open wings and holding a wreath in its beak (e.g. SNG Copenhagen 236–241).

    A large ΔЄ in the field most likely meant the same as a small ΔЄ in different contexts, also in addition to the letters SC on coins struck in Antioch in the same period. The striking similarity of the composition of ΔЄ and SC coins could suggest that ΔЄ issues were intended as competing, supplementing or replacing SC issues. Therefore, the letters ΔЄ need not indicate issues on behalf of four eparchies, but following the assumption proposed by H.R. Baldus, could evince the privileges or acceptance of local authority. Issues with the large letters ΔЄ, modeled on the SC type, could have manifested the special status of an entitled town or office.”

    McAlee’s interpretation makes sense to me, but I am hardly qualified to judge who is correct. It does seem unlikely, in my opinion, that the Delta-Epsilon was simply an indication of the tribunician power of the emperor in the form of an abbreviation for ΔΗΜΑΡXKCH ЄΞOYCIAC: if so, the letters would have been entirely redundant on coins, such as this one (as McAlee specifically notes, see above), that already set forth the tribunician power in their legends.

    I have only one other coin with the letters Delta-Epsilon on the reverse, an octassarion of Philip I. I've never posted the full write-up before, so I'll do so here:

    Philip I AE Octassarion (8 Assaria), Second Issue, AD 247-249, Syria, Seleucis & Pieria, Antioch Mint. Obv. Radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right, ΑΥΤΟΚ Κ Μ ΙΟΥΛΙ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟϹ ϹƐΒ / Rev. Turreted and draped bust of Tyche right; above, ram leaping right with head turned back left; star below bust; ΑΝΤΙΟΧƐΩΝ - ΜΗΤΡΟ ΚΟΛΩΝ around; Δ – Ɛ [Delta – Epsilon] across upper fields; S - C across lower fields. 30 mm., 15.68 g. McAlee 990 (ill. p. 345) [Richard McAlee, The Coins of Roman Antioch (2007)]; RPC VIII Online (unassigned, ID 7493) (see; BMC 20 Syria 526 [Warwick Wroth, A Catalog of the Greek Coins in the British Museum, Vol. 20, Galatia, Cappadocia, and Syria (London, 1899) at p. 215]. Purchased from Kenneth W. Dorney, Feb. 2022.*


    *Second Issue, Star below Tyche. Octassarion: See McAlee p. 327:

    “The aes coinage of Philip I and his family can be divided into two issues. The first issue, struck from 244 to c.247, is characterized by an obverse legend for Philip I which includes ‘MA.IOVΛ.’ (or, rarely, ‘MA. IOVΛI.’), a reverse legend ending ‘ΚΟΛΩ.’, and the absence of a star below the bust of Tyche on the largest denomination. The second issue, struck from c. 247 to 249, is characterized by an obverse legend for Philip I which includes ‘M. IOVΛI.’, a reverse legend ending ‘ΚΟΛΩΝ.’, and the presence of a star below the bust of Tyche on the largest denomination. The coins of the first issue are larger and heavier than those of the second issue, and are not as common as those of the second issue. It is apparent that Philip reformed the bronze coinage by reducing its weight, and that the mint marked the reformed coins with a star below the bust of Tyche.

    The large denomination (eight assaria) consistently employs a bust of Tyche as the reverse type. . . . A scarce medium denomination (four assaria) was struck with reverse Apollo standing, and a very rare type with reverse Tyche standing. Both reverse types appear on the medium denomination aes of later emperors.”

    Ram: See Butcher, Kevin, Coinage in Roman Syria: 64 BC-AD 253 (PhD Thesis, University of London, 1991) (available at at p. 369:

    “The ram which appears as a type or subsidiary device on Antiochene coinage is thought to represent Aries, perhaps the zodiacal sign under which the city was founded (or subsequently refounded). On the reverses of civic bronzes it is usually accompanied by a star, or a star and crescent, strongly suggesting that it is indeed an astral symbol. Although the type is not known on Antiochene coinage before the reign of Augustus, this does not necessarily mean that it is late in date; the Tyche of Antioch, set up in the early third century BC, does not occur on coins until the first century BC.”

    See also McAlee at p. 8: “Another symbol seen on both silver and bronze coins, and as a primary type on the reverse of some civic coins, is a ram, usually depicted as a leaping or running figure looking backwards. It is likely that the ram is a zodiacal symbol (Aries), perhaps referring to the time of year at which the city was founded.”

    Δ – Ɛ (Delta-Epsilon): See third footnote to description of Caracalla tetradrachm (McAlee 681).

    S – C (Senatus Consulto): See the extensive discussion at McAlee pp. 3-5, arguing that “the letters SC on the coins of Antioch . . . mean[], in effect, ‘Roman currency'” (as opposed to their meaning on earlier Imperial coins, signifying Senatorial authorization of a particular issue). His summary and conclusion can be found at McAlee p. 5:


    Please post your Caracalla tetradrachms from Antioch or elsewhere, and/or your own Antioch coins bearing the letters Delta-Epsilon on the reverse.
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
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  3. Shea19

    Shea19 Supporter! Supporter

    Great new addition Donna! (and great post too!). I can share two Caracalla tets from Antioch, and a big bronze of Treb. Gallus with a Delta Epsilon on the reverse:

    Caracalla, Syria, Antioch, BI Tetradrachm (26 mm, 13.95 g), 215-217 AD, ΑΥΤ Κ Μ Α ΑΝΤΩΝЄΙΝΟC C ЄΒ, Laureate head of Caracalla to right./ Rev. Eagle with spread wings standing facing on club, head to right and holding wreath in beak; between the eagle's legs, star. McAlee 686
    Caracalla, Seleucis and Pieria. Antioch, BI Tetradrachm (27 mm, 12.00g), 215-217 AD. Laureate head of Caracalla to r./ Rev. Eagle with spread wings standing facing, head to r. and holding wreath in beak; star above cornucopiae below. McAlee 693

    Trebonianus Gallus, 251-253, Seleucis and Pieria, Antioch, AE Octassarion (30 mm, 18.53 g). Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of T. Gallus to right./ Rev.ANTIOXEΩN MHTPO KOΛΩN / Δ-E / S C Tyche of Antioch seated facing with river god Orontes swimming left below; all within tetrastyle portable shrine surmounted by ram leaping right; on bottom of shrine, carrying poles. RPC IX 1851.
  4. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Very informative write-up, @DonnaML!

    Here are some Antiochene coins with the Δ-Є.


    Macrinus Antioch.jpg


    Diadumenian Antioch.jpg


    Elagabalus Antioch ad Orentem.jpg
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  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Great new addition, Donna.

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    Beroea, Cyrrhestica, Syria
    O: AVT K M AV ANTΩNЄINOC CЄB, Laureate, draped and cuirassed bust right.
    Eagle standing facing, head and tail left, with wings spread, holding wreath in beak; between legs, bird facing between legs.
    Prieur 884

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    MESOPOTAMIA, Rhesaena
    O: AVT KAI ANTΩNЄINOC CЄB, laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right.
    R: ΔHMAPX ЄΞ VΠATOC TO Δ, eagle standing facing, head right, with wings spread, holding wreath in beak; rectangle between legs. Struck 215/17AD
    Prieur 876 Bellinger 172

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    O: AVT KAI ANTωNINOC CЄ, Laureate bust right.
    R: ΔHMAPX ЄΞ VΠATOC TO Δ, Eagle, with head left, wreath in beak and wings spread, standing facing on club right; murex shell between legs. Struck 213/17AD
    Prieur 1547

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    Laodicea ad Mare, Seleucis and Pieria
    O: AYT K M A ANTΩNEINOC CEB, laureate head right.
    R: ∆HMAPX EΞ YΠATOC TO ∆, facing eagle, head left holding wreath in beak, star between legs.
    Prieur 1179

    Caracalla (198 - 217 A.D.)
    AR Tetradrachm
    Mesopotamia, Carrhae
    O: AVT·K·M·A ANTONЄINOC ·C-EB · ·, laureate head of Caracalla right; two pellets beneath rear truncation.
    R: ΔΗΜΑΡΧ ΕΞ ΥΠΑΤΟ Δ, eagle standing facing on bucranium, dot to each side, wings spread, head right, wreath in beak.
    Prieur 820, Bellinger 160, SGI 2701

    Ex. Agora Auctions, lot 184, Sale 81
  6. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Those are very nice coins, Donna. I think the Caracalla tetradrachm is very choice, so much better than is typically encountered, with very good quality metal. The Philip I AE Octassarion is also a wonderful coin with excellent detail and preservation.

    This is a more typical tetradrachm for Caracalla that actually had bronze disease. Billon coins can develop BD. In the case of this coin the outbreak was on the reverse in the area of the lower right outer part of the eagle's wing. It was quite persistent and some of the detail dots are now diminished. The BD was occurring on these dots.

    The metal quality is rough and the legends are incomplete.

    Caracalla, 215-217 AD
    BI Teteradrachm
    Prieur 1222

    13.48 grams

    D-Camera Caracalla BI tetradrachm AKE-PTOLEMAIS, c. 215 - 217AD 13.48g Prieur 1222 5-15-22.jpg

    Of much better quality, at least in metal, is this tetradrachm of Geta.

    Geta, 209-212 AD
    Prieur 1541

    13.86 grams

    D-Camera Geta tetradrachm Tyre 209-212AD Prieur 1541 13.86g 5-15-22.jpg
  7. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Wonderful tetradrachms, especially the first one!
  8. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Excellent Tetradrachm and fascinating write-up @DonnaML.

    Just a superstition:D, of course not from any of the authors mentioned in the OP:

    Since Theta was used as an abbreviation for Thanatos, it was a tabu and not used, just like the number 13 is for floors or hotel rooms. On coins from Antiochia, Theta was replaced by ΔЄ which is 4 + 5 = 9

    I only have one ΔЄ Elagabalus coin, and it is quite worn, however all the details are there:

    Æ 19, Antiochia ad Orontem, 218 - 222 AD

    18.19 x 19.06 mm, 4.481 g
    BMC 435; McAlee 783(b)/1; Butcher 470; SNG Copenhagen 243-244

    Obv.: AVT KAI MA ANTWNEINOC, laureate draped and cuirassed Elagabalus bust r.
    Rev.: large S • C within wreath ΔЄ above ornamented by a star at top, eagle with open wings below.

    Picture courtesy AMCC3 (the coin was in a lot of 9 that I won):
    upload_2022-5-15_23-21-56.png upload_2022-5-15_23-22-14.png
  9. Mr.MonkeySwag96

    Mr.MonkeySwag96 Well-Known Member

    I don’t own any Provincial tets of Caracalla yet, as some of the portraits of these Eastern mints are a little too crude for my taste.
  10. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Donna, Nice score with a well struck example of McAlee 681 :happy:! I totally agree with McAlee's interpretation of the Delta-Epsilon letters & his S C interpretation. He has accomplished impressive scholarship on the coinage of Roman-Syria. I have a nice example of McAlee 681 / Prieur 224 pictured below.

    Caracalla, Antioch-Syria.jpg

    I also managed to find an interesting & controversial example of an Elagabalus tetradrachm with the Delta-Epsilon letters pictured below.
    IMG_9010.JPG IMG_9020.JPG
    The coin pictured below is the 1st issue of a Caracalla tetradrachm with a debasement of silver from 59% to 35%, initiating the War Tetradrachm series. My example is a rare unlisted variant without periods separating the obverse inscription. Pictured below it is a regular issue with the periods.

    Caracalla, Prieur 217, AWK Collection.jpg
    SYRIA, Antioch. Caracalla, AD 198-217 (struck circa AD 214/5). Billon Tetradrachm: 13.74 gm, 27 mm, 5 h. McAlee 677, Prieur 217, unlisted variant without periods on the obverse. Rare. Ex Michel Prieur Collection.

    A.C.T., Caracalla_Syria_Antioch_AR_Tetradrachm_Eagle_Prieur217.jpg

    SYRIA, Antioch, Caracalla, AD 198-217. Billon Tetradrachm: 13.60 gm, 26 mm, 12 h. McAlee 677, Prieur 217 regular issue. Photo courtesy of Ancient Coin Traders.
  11. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    Hi Donna - I enjoyed your writeup and especially like your Philip I AE Octassarion. Here's my Caracalla with Δ-Ε across upper fields, star between legs
    NOT Caracalla.PNG

    Oh wait!!!! that's not right. See: Son of Caracalla for the full story on this coin which clearly was not correctly attributed by the auction house.

    Elagabalus, AR Tetradrachm of Antioch, Syria. AD 218-222
    Obv: ΑYΤ Κ Μ Α ΑΝΤωΝΕΙΝΟC CΕΒ, laureate head right, with slight drapery
    Rev: ΔΗΜΑΡΧΕΞ YΠΑΤΟC ΤΟ Β, eagle standing facing with spread wings, head and tail left, holding wreath in his beak; Δ-Ε across upper fields, star between legs
    Ref: Prieur 264 with 6 examples known at time of publication
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  12. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Nice write-up @DonnaML - though I had thought that SC from Antioch referred to Coele-Syria. But who knows and your argument is somewhat convincing.

    Keeping it in the family so to speak here is a coin of Caracalla's long lost son, who apochryphally was his relation, or that was the story spread by Julia Soaemias.

    Marcus Aurelius Antoninus better known as Elagabalus...

    Elagabalus, 218-222 A.D., Antioch, Seleucis and Pieria

    AR Tetradrachm, struck 218-220 A.D., 25mm 12.02 grams

    Obverse: Laureate head of Elagabalus right

    Reverse: Eagle standing left, wreath in beak, star between legs, delta epsilon in field


    Reference: Prieur 249A; McAlee 760


    AR Denarius, Elagabalus 218-222.

    Obverse: Laureate bust of Elagabalus right

    Reverse: Baetyl, in quadriga with horses prancing right

  13. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Nice coins.

    But Antioch wasn't in Coele-Syria. See the list of the four eparchies of the Syria Province and their capitals, set forth in the Delta-Epsilon excerpt from McAlee. I don't see how that theory could be correct, and I haven't seen any modern authority suggest it.
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
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  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    So, can anyone tell me if I'm right in gathering from what I've read that "Seleucis and Pieria" is something different from "Seleucia in Pieria"?
  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I have no doubt that you're right that there were contexts in which Theta (9) was represented by Delta (4) + Epsilon (5) on ancient coins, because of the superstition you mention, as in setting forth an officina number. But the number 9 has no significance I'm aware of in the context of the use of Delta-Epsilon on the reverse of Antioch tetradrachms and certain bronzes beginning with Caracalla -- in other words, on a variety of denominations including octassaria -- and I don't believe that any authority has suggested it as an interpretation.
  16. Dwarf

    Dwarf Active Member

    I try:
    "Seleucia in Pieria" is a town - the seaport of Antioch ad Orontes

    "Seleucis and Pieria" was a district of northwest Syria, bordering the Mediterranean, just north of Phoenicia.
    Antioch and Seleucia situated in this district

    Exactly as you stated this in the beginning


    And by the way - thanks for the great writing!
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  17. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    I prefer to use the Latin name to not get lost in translation: Seleukis ad Pieria was the harbor of Antiochia ad Orontes (also Great Antioch or Syrian Antioch; Arabic:انطاکیه; on the eastern side of the Orontes River, near the modern city of Antakya, Turkey) :)
  18. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Well I think the question has been solved! Nice bit of scholarship folks. That's why it pays to hang around CT.
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  19. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks. I assume that "Seleukis" is the Greek spelling, and that, as usual, in Latin it's spelled with a "c" instead.
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  20. Shea19

    Shea19 Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks! I really like your Geta tetradrachm from Tyre, beautiful coin…not easy to find Geta tets in such good condition. I actually have a Caracalla tet from Tyre with a very similar portrait style to yours:


    Looking at the two coins side-by-side, I’d bet that these dies may have been engraved by the same person. (And I’m sure Caracalla would have been thrilled that he looked just like his little brother on these types)
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  21. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    They don't look quite exactly alike on these tetradrachms: even when relatively young, Caracalla always appears in need of some serious botox injections in his forehead. Geta doesn't have that problem.
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