Matte Proof vs Regular

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Prospector, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. Prospector

    Prospector Member

    Can anyone tell me how the average person can detect A Matte Proof from a regular Lincocln Wheat Penny .. besides buy a book?

    I know they are supposed to have a microscopic pebble-like surface but is there any other unique die markings that make it easier to spot?



    Thank You
     
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    As with any Proof the rims will have squared edges, the details will be sharper and crisper since all Proofs are struck at least twice, and the luster will be entirely different.

    Other than that, either post good quality pics of the coin in question, buy the books, or submit the coin to a TPG.

    But no matter what you do, in the end the coin will not be considered to be a Matte Proof by any potential buyer until a TPG slabs it as one.
     
  4. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    If we know, and we do, that the average person cannot tell mint set coins from buisness strike, SMS coins from proofs, or modern silver proof coins from clad it's not resonable to think they (average persons) could even tell matte proof from regular struck mint state coins.
    If you don't want to buy a book I'm sure you could just look it up online with some work.
    Matte proofs are not easy when combined with age, conditon, and handling factors not to metion comparing gem EDS (early die state) wheats of the era. They are faily rare accross the board and even some dates (1917) we don't really even know yet. Data regarding mintage/die production figures are not very reliable - it's not an easy subject at all.
    Your best bet is books written by authors that have researched it.
    Bowers, Wexler, Lange, are a few who have researched this and give good explanation combined with tips of known examples.
    Few subjects in numismatics are easy and this one is tough.
     
  5. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    Ben, others ... I recently saw an online discussion regarding the slightly different placement of the periods in the VDB on the matte proofs versus the biz strikes. I'm not sure if it was here or another forum. Can anyone provide me a link? Thanks ...
     
  6. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    George and the OP.
    While I was not going to go into detail about these from Info. in "The Authoritive Reference", Wexler, I did find that Kevin Fyinn did write a book specifically about these called of course Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs, in 2009. Which according to Wexler does provide step by step anaylsis of these type proofs.
    I know the OP did not want a book but this is the best I can do for the moment.

    One more thing for the OP: I know Lincoln cents farily well and look at a few thousand each month and I know next to nothing about these. I've only seen a dozen or so and they were not mine!
     
  7. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Isnt the whole idea of a proof "the shine"
     
  8. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems


    No, the hubbing, die preperation, tonage, strike, planchet prep., handling, amount struck - many, many things. Proof is a method of the mints highest possible art in coining, not shine.
     
  9. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    Thanks Ben, I'm aware of that book and have heard good things about it. My question still stands, though, if anyone knows of the online discussion (with pix) showing the different placement of the periods on 1909 VDB proofs vs biz strikes. It was quite a compelling discussion, and I should have bookmarked it. Yep, the MPLs are rare, especially the 09 VDB.
     
  10. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"


    Ive got several proofs, And the amazing polish and shine makes
    Them my over all favorite :)
     
  11. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    Not all proofs are shiny ... it's much more complicated than that. The early gold of the 20th century was produced in a matte or sandblast finish (except for 1909-1910, which saw a hybrid Roman or satin finish), as were the Lincolns from 1909-1916. I don't disagree with what you say at all, though. But the strike is much sharper on proofs, and there are lots of different surface treatments. For some early 19th century coins, it really comes down to, are they early business strikes from prooflike dies, or did the coiner intend to make special/specimen strikes? And the jury is still out on a lot of those historic coins. Even the word "proof" has evolved in auction catalogs over time. Lots of 19th century catalogs used the term "proof" for brilliant Uncirculated or prooflike coins.
     
  12. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    I'd like to see that and bookmark it also, anyone???
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The reason for this is definitions. What constitutes a Proof in one person's mind does not necessarily constitutue a Proof in somebody else's mind.

    But as a general rule, the accpted definition of a Proof is a coin that has been struck on specially prepared planchets by specially prepared dies. And usually struck more than once.

    Using that definition - Proof-Likes don't cut the mustard.
     
  14. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

  15. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    to add to the complication of telling matte proof vs. business strikes, i read that some of the matte proof coins that weren't up to quality standards were not sold as matte proofs but instead put into general circulation. also, i read that used matte proof dies were later used to strike business strike coins.
     
  16. The Penny Lady®

    The Penny Lady® Coin Dealer

    For anyone serious about Matte Proof Lincolns, you MUST buy a book, and Kevin Flynn's latest (mentioned above) is by far the most thorough. A book will give you the necessary diagnostics (in addition to the square rims, usually minute die lines in various locations on each date) which are critical in determining whether you have a Matte Proof Lincoln as opposed to a well struck business strike.

    MPL's are a different breed of proofs in that they are NOT bright and shiny and mirror-like. They are grainy and rough looking and not easy to determine they are proofs, which is one of the reasons they quickly became unpopular with collectors.

    I have a quick little story. I was recently offered a raw 1909 MPL from a customer. After determining for myself that it was indeed an MPL, I bought it and showed it to an friend in Baltimore who is an authority on MPL's and asked what he thought it would grade. After examining it for a few minutes, he determined that, yes it was indeed an MPL, but it had completely different diagnostics than what he had previously seen on other 1909 MPLs. To shorten this story, this coin is currently being discussed, examined, and analyzed among several MPL authorities, including Kevin Flynn, who also has determined that it is a new die variety not previously known. He will be using this coin when he updates his current book for the next edition.

    By the way, he thought it would grade PF64 RB, so after Kevin took a bunch of extremely close up photos for his book, I sent the coin to PCGS for grading.
     
  17. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    sounds interesting Charmy. keep us posted.

    i recently saw a collector on the CU forum post a PCGS 66RB 1909 MPL that didn't show any of the traditional 1909 MPL diagnostics. I sent him a PM about that and he too confirmed it didn't have the traditional diagnostics and became concerned about it and said that his next message was going to be to Kevin Flynn... not sure what happened with that though.
     
  18. The Penny Lady®

    The Penny Lady® Coin Dealer

    I know which one (and who) you're talking about, and the experts have seen his 1909 and are aware it too may be one of the unknown varieties but they don't have close up photos of it - at least not yet.
     
  19. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    Wow, that's exciting news! I have heard Kevin's book is excellent and have one coming my way ... thanks Charmy.
     
  20. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    Do you remember where you read this?
     
  21. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    My first step would be to compare the rim/edge. If it fails there, you need to go no farther. The Matte proof has no chamfering ( slope, rounding) on the outside or inside edge of the rim. The edge appears almost sharp 45 degree angle and the rim appears polished. Here is a ( now) PCGS 1909 Matte Proof.

    [​IMG]

    Jim
     
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