Leu Numismatik

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Mat, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    I reserve my right to be annoyed about it. :p

    (And be careful about telling people how they should feel...)
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  3. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    OK then, please feel free to mourn the loss :angelic:
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  4. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    I attended a Leu-Auction in person in Zurich in 2019. At this auction it was bidder 51, who bought almost all and everything usually at multiples of the asking price.

    There was one lot that I wanted very badly. Having observed bidder 51's complete insensitiveness to prices. I bid him (or her?) up to an insane amount for this lot before bailing out myself. But yes, I didn't get any coin in that auction.

    Bidder 51 was represented by a dealer.
    Orielensis, seth77, DonnaML and 3 others like this.
  5. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    I don't know if there is any real evidence to support this money laundering theory. I suppose not. However, I know that most or all of the Aurum Barbarorum collection, which Leu sold in several installments has not been strictly speaking a collection previously.

    Instead, the coins have been bought from the Ukrainian Violity site over a period of only a few years and most likely with the explicit aim of reselling them in the west. Since the export of these coins from Ukraine is not legally possibly, they have likely been smuggled out of the country, possibly via Poland, Germany to Switzerland. Personally, I don't have a problem with this.
    panzerman and Hrefn like this.
  6. kirispupis

    kirispupis Supporter! Supporter

    Some time ago there was a discussion here about an auction where every single one of the roughly two hundred coins sold for on average thousands over the market value. The auction house came out of nowhere and suddenly held such auctions every month. One of the owners had previously been arrested in France for money laundering.

    Those are very suspicious details that would indicate money laundering. What's happening in Leu is just a number of big spenders who don't know or don't care about current market values.

    We can laugh at how stupid we think they are, while they enjoy cappuccinos, served by their butlers on their pleasure yachts while the sun sets over the Mediterranean.
  7. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    BTW the original cappuccino is meant to be served only for breakfast :)
  8. kirispupis

    kirispupis Supporter! Supporter

    When you have that kind of money, you no longer care. :)
  9. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member


    Well, on the other end of the financial spectrum, here's my middle son last weekend in Rome. We're Americans. He worked at a paid accountancy internship and saved his money all last summer and is currently taking a semester in Antibes, France. He traveled by himself to Rome for the weekend. Train to Rome was 58 euros; the flight back to France was only 13! He stayed in a youth hostel, which was 35 euros for two nights. So aside from food and admissions, his weekend in Rome cost him about $125. I am liking his money sense. Maybe things would be different if we were independently wealthy. We are not.

    At any rate, to keep it coin-y, here's my only Leu win, from an electronic auction a few weeks ago: Julius Caesar denarius with Aeneas reverse.

    -jeffB, Orielensis, seth77 and 16 others like this.
  10. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian Supporter Dealer

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  11. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    Good old Ryanair, probably!

    I'll probably head to Rome for a few days as soon as present project finishes - still have 27 days of vacation left for 2021 and can only bring 5 forward to 2022. It's usually pretty cheap to fly to continental Europe from Ireland too.

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  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    By the way, there are seven more Roscius Fabatus denarii for sale in another Spanish auction, tomorrow's Soler y Llach sale (Lots 374-380). None has a pre-sale estimate above 200 Euros, and the highest current bid on any of them is 420 Euros. I will be very interested to see if any of them sells for thousands of Euros like the examples in the Aureo & Calico sale.

    I actually have the highest current bid on one coin for sale in the Soler y Llach auction -- I won't specify which one, although I suppose if I did I could ask fellow CTers not to bid on that coin! -- but given recent trends I am not optimistic that it will hold up in the live bidding tomorrow. (I tried to register for the live bidding, but the application seems to require a "NIF / DNI / NIE" number that apparently can be obtained by foreigners only at a Spanish consulate, so no thank you. I am an EU citizen, as it happens, but I am not a Spanish resident. If that's truly a requirement, it's probably just as well, because my current maximum bid is really as high as I can justify going. If I participated in the live bidding, I know I could get carried away! If anyone is really curious as to which coin I bid on, they can ask me privately.)
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  13. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    I nearly forgot to go back and check: their EID MAR sold for 140,000 CHF on a laughable 20,000 estimate:
  14. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    I bought this Civil War denarius at a Leu Auction about 5 years ago before the prices started to take off. Paid about 1100 euros all in.

    I thought the price was still fair, but on the high side.
    From what I have seen lately, I am glad I no longer (actively) buy ancients...

    Civil War denarius 69 ad Bonus Eventus - OBV:REV - 2021.png
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  15. savitale

    savitale Well-Known Member

    I was watching 25 coins in the Leu auction, all Roman Imperial. That is a large number for me but it was because there were a lot of duplicates in the third part of the sale. Including buyer's fee and currency conversion, the median selling price for these 25 coins was 44% higher than my estimate. My estimates were based on historical prices realized. 44% is a solid premium but is consistent with a strong market in my opinion.

    For those of you who use the house estimate in your pricing decisions, for these 25 coins the median hammer price was exactly 2.00x estimate. So - at least for this auction house - a realistic thing to do would seem to be to double the house estimate and then work from there.

    Of course there were anomalies. The coin below sold for 6.21x my estimate. Two people valued it much more than I.


    Lot 352
    Volusian, 251-253.
    Antoninianus (Silver, 22 mm, 4.81 g, 1 h), Rome (?), 252. IMP C C VIB VOLVSIANVS AVG Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust of Volusian to right, seen from behind. Rev. FELICITAS PVBL Felicitas standing front, head to left, holding long caduceus in her right hand and cornucopiae in her left. Cohen 32. RIC 205. A very attractive and sharply struck coin with a particularly fine portrait. Virtually as struck.

    From the collection of Regierungsrat Dr. iur. Hans Krähenbühl, ex Münzen & Medaillen AG FPL 321, March 1971, 44.
  16. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    As others point out from time to time, that is an exceptional Volusion. I have owned many & just never shared. I love it actually it & I don't get attracted to "perfect" looking ancients much. And that is one of the heavier ones I have seen weight size for him too.
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  17. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Prices are insane!

    BUT, sometimes there are bargains.

    I bought this beautifull AV Dukat 1631 in recent Gorny & Mosch Auction. It remained "unsold" estimate was 5K Euros
    Pommern/ Herzogtum
    AV Dukat 1631 Koslin Mint Vz-St. quality
    Bogilaus XIV 1620-37

    In Kunkers special Pommern Auction 2016/ this date was missing/ no gold coins came close to this coins quality.

    Had this coin appeared in CNG/ Heritage/ Leu would have been a different story.....
    Also from Aureo & Calico I got a RRR Portugal 1818 AV 1000 Reis in MS (270 struck) as unsold lot @ 1800E
    Takes lots of work to locate good deals.
    John 01340Q00.jpg 01340Q00.jpg
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  18. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    Donna, I was able to register for live bidding without that number. I just tried it for craps and giggles because I'm contemplating a couple serrate denarius. You may try registering and leaving that blank.
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  19. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I did, and it worked. Thanks! Now I have the opportunity to get carried away beyond all reason!
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  20. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Maybe bidder 21 is the famous "Tyrant" ;)
  21. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    Hahaha yes! Be tempted! Prices generally seem strong today.
    DonnaML likes this.
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