Lamination vs Delamination

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by masterswimmer, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer Well-Known Member

    I'm incredibly curious about these two terms when applied to coin errors.

    We all know and use the widely accepted term lamination crack and retained lamination. Why are these the terms used? I find the numismatic community to be one of the more educated and intelligent hobbyist community's I've interacted with. These terms describing the errors seem absolutely incongruous with the faults observed with these coins.

    Lamination is the process of joining two thin materials together.
    Delamination is the process of splitting apart of laminated layers. A failure of the adhesive joining the layers.

    Why isn't a retained lamination referred to as a retained delamination? That seems so much more descriptive of the failed process.

    Hopefully we can get some input from some of our resident experts, @JCro57 , @Fred Weinberg , @paddyman98

    Thanks in advance for clarifying this for me.
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  3. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I am confused over the two terms .. Retained delamination and lamination . I understand lamination and delamination but not retained lamination though , if that makes sense . Even though delamination comes up as a nonsense word when typed .
    Confused in Connecticut ....:confused:
    TonkawaBill and love old coins like this.
  4. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer Well-Known Member

    When two or more laminated surfaces delaminate, most if not all of one of the surfaces detaches and falls off. Hence the term delamination (but not in the coin world). Here it is called a lamination.

    If the delamination becomes a 'flap' and doesn't fall off, then it is a retained delamination (but not in the coin world). Here it is called a retained lamination. This is all part of the reason for my confusion and this thread.
    TonkawaBill, Mr.Q and SensibleSal66 like this.
  5. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    I have always understood three descriptors for the anomaly.
    Lamination crack an uneven line of various width where two surfaces have separated.
    Detached lamination where a piece has fallen off
    Retained lamination where a piece has separated but is still attached to the coin
    3 examples in order of above
    20210809_180135 (2).jpg 20210813_222557 (2).jpg
    20210808_102545 (2).jpg 20210808_102701 (2).jpg
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  6. Pete Apple

    Pete Apple Well-Known Member

    When I asked this question, the explanation I received was that everyone understood but the misuse of the term has become so ingrained that it is simply not possible to change the habit of using lamination
  7. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    Delamination is the correct usage, grammatically speaking. However the industrial usage - despite being flat out wrong technically - is lamination.

    I only use "lamination" so people within the hobby know what I am referring to.

    I make a similar case between the terms "altered" and "counterfeit."
  8. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer Well-Known Member

    Come on Joe, you've got the power! Get the industry to correct their collective misnomer. You can do it! ;)
  9. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    If the lamellar substrate detaches it is referred to correctly as a delamination, however, the piece that has detached or is detaching would be correctly referred to as a "lame". Obviously the word has other connotations which is why I assume it isn't used. Lamination is almost always an incorrect term to use when describing the state of a coin.
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  10. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Why complicate things? Clad coins are laminated. Solid alloy coins are not made of two sheets put together and are NOT LAMINATED. Therefore, IMO, "delamination" should only apply to this characteristic on layered coins. In addition, it appears that the word "lamination" refers to a process of manufacturing and NOT the effect we see on our coins. Nevertheless, numismatists have adopted it for our use.

    AFAIK, in numismatics, a lamination refers to a thin split of a coins surface. So, it appears the term "lamination" covers all three photos above. However, when a part of the lamination becomes completely detached I believe the term "detached lamination" is used although it probably better describes the missing (detached) piece of metal itself.

    In the end, knowledgeable folks in other fields will just need to tolerate the misuse of the term lamination by :bucktooth: such as myself. If anyone were to insist on any changes, I believe "delamination" is the best term to describe all the images above.

    :oops: Joe already said that.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  11. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    TonkawaBill and Pete Apple like this.
  12. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Unfortunately, we have far too many people who would rather use the wrong term instead of spending a little time to learn the correct term. It's no different from people who use "your" instead of "you're" or "must of" instead of "must've".
    TonkawaBill and masterswimmer like this.
  13. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

    I do not believe there is any one person that can correct this.

    And there are a lot of them. Hear are just a feww.

    Clipped planchet...
    Die polishing lines...
    double die...
    counter-stamped coin...
    Mountain Man and TonkawaBill like this.
  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    alurid, posted: "I do not believe there is any one person that can correct this.

    And there are a lot of them. Hear are just a feww.

    Clipped planchet...
    Die polishing lines...

    double die...
    counter-stamped coin..."

    Would you :bookworm: please educate us as to the correct term for each of the characteristics in red that we find on our coins? Thanks in advance!
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  15. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Duh, okay!
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  16. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer Well-Known Member

    I gave a wink ;) at the end of my post to acknowledge my statement as being facetious.
    alurid, JCro57 and TonkawaBill like this.
  17. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    You do know that if you Use "Reply" located at the bottom of his post, you can edit out all except what you want to discuss AND let @alurid know at the same time that you want him to reply to your response. How in the heck do you expect him to know that you want him to reply? You do this all of the time!

    I've tried to educate you more than once on this bad habit of yours, but you continue to ignore it.
    TonkawaBill likes this.
  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...


    Dear 9ball,

    Apparently, I give him more credit for brains than you do. The fact that he is posting in this thread will alert him that more comments have been added such as my request. ;) I think he understood my request.
  19. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    This was his last post......10:22am on 10/23

    This is your last post to @alurid ......11:53am on 10/23

    He has not posted since your request. By the way, don't put words in my mouth....."I give him more credit for brains than you do." Those are your words.
  20. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    Well, if a coin is struck on a planchet that has a clip, I'm not sure why "clipped planchet" is controversial.

    I mean, the clip does occur during the blanking stage. But if you call it a "clipped blank," and it was struck (with rims added), that wouldn't make sense.

    So how would this best be described, if not a triple clipped planchet?

  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Thanks for trying to post my original request. IMO, Your friend posted NONSENSE except for "double die." I believe that's why he had not answered. Rather than defend the nonsense and "crickets" by complaining about how I post, perhaps you would like to comment as the error guy did and explain why die polish lines or counter stamped coin are incorrect. Never mine, you'll just add to the confusion because both terms are perfectly acceptable. :D

    PS besides "bold" try emoji and color. It's more fun.
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