help with Plotina Sestertius

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by limmle, Sep 6, 2020.

  1. limmle

    limmle Active Member

    If anyone could provide an opinion on this, It would be much appreciated. I purchased this Plotina Sestertius from a well known auction house earlier this year. 447698A9-61CC-4334-8BB0-1C52980D0952_1_105_c.jpeg
    Plotina (Augusta, 105-123). Æ Sestertius (34mm, 28.95g, 6h). Rome, c. 112-7. Draped bust r., wearing stephane. R/ Fides standing r., holding grain ears and basket of fruits. RIC II 740 (Trajan). Fine


    Just doing a random search through previous auctions today, I noticed what appears to be the same coin (shape and pitting patterns are identical) from the same auction house in 2016, but with different features, surface colour and markings.
    8100F02B-D22D-4C32-B282-77B94F6E49B3.jpeg

    Plotina (Trajan, 98-117), Sestertius, Rome, AD 112-117; ; PLOTINA AVG - [IMP TRAIANI], diademed and draped bust r., hair in long tail at back, Rv. FIDES - [A]VGVS[T], Fides standing r., holding corn-ears and basket of fruit; in field, S - C. RIC 740; C 12.Rare. Large flan, dark patina, very fine.

    There was no mention of smoothing in my purchase and I'm a bit of a newbie (advice is maybe to stay away from more expensive coins till I know better). Is it the same coin? What alterations have been made? Do you think I should return the coin, or contact the auction house?
     

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  3. ernstk

    ernstk Active Member

    sorry but a piece of advice, please don't buy such worn and damaged coins. These coins will be so hard to sell or upgrade later on should you feel to do so. This is just waste of money. Try to buy a coins that are VF or XF grade so that can be liquidated easily if you need the money later on.
     
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  4. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    It looks like the same coin to me. I wonder if that is BD on that older photo and between being sold again it was treated and changed and softened some of the features or details it previously had, but saved the coin. I'm curious what others might say.
     
  5. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I think it's definitely the same coin -- a double die match is one thing, but you're not going to find two different coins like this with the identical non-round shape! Perhaps the difference from the 2016 image is attributable to the photography? Although it does look like the green patches have been removed.
     
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  6. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Nonsense. That's true for easily obtained emperors, such as Trajan or Hadrian, but not for very scarce figures such as Plotina. This isn't a Morgan dollar.

    As for the original question, it's the same coin. Photographic techniques vary widely between dealers and often a coin looks very different in hand.

    I too think it's been treated for bronze disease.
     
  7. ernstk

    ernstk Active Member

    It might be fake but even if genuine they don't worth much at all in this poor condition. I hope you didn't pay much for it
     
  8. ernstk

    ernstk Active Member

    Even it was a caligula denarius in such condition, good luck finding someone who pay much for it. What I say come from personal experience , years ago I bought some rare coins in terrible condition thinking they are rare and I cant get picky , guess what? few years after I tried selling them and every body was arguing about bad condition and no body even cared how rare the coin was.
     
  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Even assuming that you're correct -- and I don't think you are, because I suspect you have no idea how rare and in demand coins of Plotina are in any condition -- some people don't buy ancient coins as investments, and don't intend ever to sell them, and don't care about the resale value. They understand that if they do ever sell, they're unlikely to recover their original costs. But that's OK, because that's not the point.
     
  10. ernstk

    ernstk Active Member

    Don't say never. Life is long and you never know when you need cash. My point is, someone can enjoy the hobby while preserving money as well. Buying a coin in good condition makes one to enjoy the pleasure of owning and ancient coin on top of preserving his money when the need arises. Also lots of time, you will see the same coin show up in future and you would like to upgrade yours but if your coin is in bad condition, it will be very hard to upgrade it to the better coin.
     
  11. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Sounds like you’re trying to tell people their way of collecting is “wrong.” Not everybody has the same idea of fun, and not everybody has the same idea of financials.

    just let them be
     
  12. limmle

    limmle Active Member

    Its interesting. I though the same thing DonnaML , and it could be, but there's no trace of green on my coin and there are subtle, but noticeable differences. The S on the Reverse, for example is straighter in the middle on the original. The raised hair at the front is much more defined on my purchase and the noticeable scratching in the patina on both sides raises questions too.
     
  13. ernstk

    ernstk Active Member

    No I just provided him my advice based on my personal experience it's his money and his choice and time will teach us all ;)
     
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Obviously the differences are not just attributable to the photography, then. But I'm still sure it's the same coin.
     
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  15. limmle

    limmle Active Member

    There's room for a wide variety of opinions about buying coins in poor condition. I accept ernstk's opinion as well intentioned advice, but I would agree with the others that a Plotina Sestertius is not to be tossed aside. I saw this coin and thought it not in great condition, but you can recognise the bust and you can read her name fairly clearly. Personally I think its a valuable historical decision. I like the coin and I have no plans to sell it. It would be disappointing if I found out it was fake, but I can live with it being treated for BD or even light smoothing, but I think these should have been declared by the auction house.

    I did not pay a huge amount (compared to other Plotinas), in retrospect there wasn't much competitive bidding which leads me to think others were probably put off by something I didn't see. On close inspection of the original, Im still happy to have it. Im pretty sure it's not a fake, and if its been altered, I think only very slightly, and I'm never going to be able to afford the cost of other Plotinas I've seen for sale or auction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  16. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    I'm not so sure that your, genuinely, beautiful example of a rare Augusta, that I do not haves isn't just a difference in photography and maybe a cleaning.
    Here's one I bought photographed by two different auction houses 20191215_101331_581A26EE-681A-4080-9A6F-C44E77F6586A-2094-000000909FCA7961.jpg 20191215_154633_8BD06ABE-6218-4D9C-B2B5-C3844C2189C8-2094-000000E02866169B.jpg

    You should've ended there.
    What is up with all your negativity, abrasiveness and bad adviser/ attitude?
    That was unasked for made up advise. :yack:o_O
    If you don't know something about a certain ruler or spouse, don't just make up a bogus opinion just to troll.
    That is a beautiful valuable coin. And in either picture would be highly sought after (I'm ready to buy it:cigar:)
    @limmle if you're not somebody that this weird troll made up, great snag:woot:
     
  17. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Star Trek, Day of the Dove...
     
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  18. robinjojo

    robinjojo Supporter! Supporter


    The two photos look like the same coin. From personal experience photographing bronze coins, especially dark ones with rough surfaces, can be devilishly tough.

    Yes, the coin was cleaned somewhat. Areas of green are gone. Whether or not that was bronze disease is questionable. Usually BD will leave pitted surfaces, especially if it has a chance to become established.

    Your coin looks like a very nice example of a rare coin.

    Congratulations.
     
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  19. Numisnewbiest

    Numisnewbiest Well-Known Member

    From a layman's eye: first, there's no question it's the same coin. Die matches are one thing, but matching corroded shapes, too? It's the same coin.

    Plotina's cheek on yours is noticeably smaller than in its previous life, and she looks much better for it. Somebody, thankfully, removed the grapefruit that was there. Also, as you mentioned, there are now areas of bronze color showing through on both sides, so it's been worked on, but whoever did it sure didn't go overboard with tooling/smoothing/ruining it.
     
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  20. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    "
    A malignant force that has existed since the beginning of time invades the Enterprise, causing chaos and bringing the crew to the brink of destruction. Under its influence, crew members clash with the Klingons until Kirk comes up with a surprising new solution.
    Show: Star Trek: The Original Series
    Air date: November 1, 1968"
    Is a 52 year old reference, as of less than two months from now and a PERFECT analogy for what's going on.
     
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  21. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Trolls will suck the life from you... don’t feed the trolls.
     
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