As I have said before, so often people say 'use a dealer with a good reputation' or 'know the dealer'...use a trusted dealer...CNG is probably considered a trusted dealer to many I would think. Thanks to the CFDL, Here we have a doctored Lipanoff fake domitian minerva denarius being sold by CNG with an estimate of 150 USD. http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=138383 Here we have a fake Lysimachos Gold Stater sold by CNG for 1850.00 (again, now on coin archives) http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=7xQG/Kco~x~g8= same coin linked above being sold legally as a 'copy' (1850.00 for a copy). This coin was condemned as fake well before it was sold but still passed through to be sold and guaranteed authentic Now CNG is a well known long standing coin seller and one would think such fakes would not pass their inspection but this is just a few found to be sold by them, worst part is that their auctions help feed the coinarchives database so this little fake piece of crap will be added to that valuable database. Makes one wonder if they know and just trying to unloaded it or if they just let it slip...but if this slipped by, how many others. If people trust them to weed out fakes...will buyers even take the time to confirm that what they bought is real? Or will they just take CNGs word for it because they are a trusted well known seller. Of the ones that are sold, how to let the buyer know they got the fake? CNG is made aware...will they make it right? The Denarius is not sold, we will see if it is removed...probably will be...but if several people had not discovered it, it would have slipped through and sold... Just goes to show that the advice 'use a trusted well established dealer with a good reputation' is not enough....it doesnt mean you do not perform due diligence regardless of who is selling.
Drusus, what you are saying there is really bad news, and quite serious. I have bought many of my ancients through CNG precisely because i was sick and tired of being taken by local dealers selling tooled or outright fake coins. I have seen fakes of ancient being offered some of the major auction houses, but they are always ultimately spotted, and withdrawn from the sales before damage is done. Nobody is infallible, but it really should not happen with these prestigious sellers specializing in ancient coinage. If you can't trust them who can you trust?
I don't think this is any indication of a change in quality. To me, its just proof that accidents happen. They deal with tons of coins and I'm sure one or two may slip through.
Then the question is, how many slipped through, how many out there spent thousands for a rare coin that was well published as fake but they sold anyway because it slipped through. This is not a thread bashing CNG...this holds true for all sellers of ancients...they are human...they make mistakes...and they are not in the business of taking a loss either....so sometimes they might let it go and hope it doesnt get caught. The denarius was found before it was sold...the Gold Stater wasnt and the stater was denounced as fake well before the sale....and now it is listed on coin archives as an authenitic coin. My main and only point is, dont ever let trust lull you into thinking that seller wont sell you a fake or that you dont have to excersize due dilegence...either by accident or otherwise they just might sell you a fake. They are human and humans make mistakes and are often crooks....
Buying from "top drawer" reputable dealers has never been a surety that the coins are genuine. That is as true today as it was when I began collecting Roman Imperials some sixty years ago. The benefits accrued are that by buying from prestigious dealers the chances are greatly reduced that you will receive a bogus coin -- and they will quickly refund your money if it is. If they don't live up to that standard, their reputation will soon be in shambles and they will not continue in business very long. PS - I have purchased (via direct sale or auction) numerous Roman Imperial coins from CNG all have which have been as described and have held up under my close scrutiny. James
this was my point, CNG was just an example I used as they are highly respected and have been found to be selling fakes. Again, this was not started to imply that CNG knowingly sells fakes... I DO wonder if the guy who bought that fake Gold Stater got his money back after he attempted to sell it and it was withdrawn from the auction because it was fake... Except for the very obvious fakes...it seems to me, as I have been reminded often...dealers, so called experts...they are only human and can make mistakes...often they cannot come to an agreement. It makes me wonder how expert they are and how many mistakes are truly made, or how many coins sold as authentic that fooled them and are still fooling them.... Also how so many people out there giving advice who are supposed to be experts are also sellers themselves...and the problems such a situation can cause.
Been a long time since I posted... I'm sure CNG tries really hard to catch the fakes. It does seem that when any of the major auction catalogs come out (not just CNG) fakes are being caught in almost all of them. Part of the problem is some of the 'experts' don't even agree all the time on if a particular coin is fake or not.
I agree...I am sure CNG does NOT want fakes being found in their catalog of coins...I have no doubt they are not out to sell a fake coin. I have noticed more and more that they are cropping up in some of the more reputable dealers auctions. Like you say, anyone who has spent any time on an ancient coin forum will notice how often experts seem to conflict as to what is real and fake...its often is just a matter of 'it doesnt look right to me' or 'It looks authentic to me'...type of stuff. I doubt the process is any more scientific for most who are selling... The obvious fakes making it through like this is probably a matter of bulk coins and the speed in which they must process them as CNG processes a lot of coins... CFDL found a whole string of real poor quality fakes in the inventory of one dealers ebay lots...since he is well know and respected most expert / dealers rallied around and said 'probably just a mistake'...these were coins on ebay thus someone had to have photos of the coins, post them, do the write up...how he could have gone through that process and not noticed the glaring fakes, I am not sure...and its easy to say a simply mistake until those coins land in YOUR collection....and on ebay, it would be pretty hard to get a refund after a year or so if the person buying doesnt look into it. I used to not keep records of where I bought my coins, these days I believe that is very important if one is found to be fake down the line. It wont help you with ebay most likely but it will at many vcoins dealers if you need to send it back years down the line. BTW...Good to see a post from you again..I visited your site just the other day as I was looking through bookmarks trying to sort them out and your fine site was one of them
Yes. I don't bother for stuff like Notgeld or the odd more modern coin, but for ancients I always make sure to keep a record of where I got it and when. Folks interested in ancients should really spend some time looking at fakes to get a "feel" for them. One good site is... http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/index.php ...especially look at the 'Study Images' lower on the page. You can learn a lot about what to look for. also http://www.forgerynetwork.com and http://www.ancients.info/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList/ are good resources. There are more, but those are off the top of my head.
I have been a customer of CNG for 20 years and find them to trustworthy and honest and overall a pleasure to deal with. And I'm sure some fakes do pass through. You can only be as diligent as possible and stay away from ebay, craigslist or any other such site.
CNG is excellent/ highest grading standards With reputatable auctions sites, fakes never make it into their catalogues....
