Hey Ya`ll, Hello to all from a newbie! I am a longtime indian artifact collector but I`ve been bitten by the "coin bug"! I`m looking for opinions about coins slabbed by SGS. Should I leave them as they are or submit them to one of the "big four"? Thanks, Don
Welcome to the forum. You won't find many fans of SGS here, I'm afraid. Submitting them to a major service will certainly give them more liquidity but don't be surprised if you don't receive the same grades. good luck and again, welcome! Nick
Consider the following: According to the addresses of SGS and the ebay seller, Aboncom, they are geographically close to one other in the same area of Ohio. There is NO phone listing for SGS and Aboncom has never denied they own SGS or are affiliated as one in the same. If you leave a negative for this seller, they will waggle their power seller position in your face. Never question the fact they may be selling their own graded coins. Ebay inexcusably believes that SGS is a 3rd party grading company which is no differant than NGC, PCGS, ICG, etc. Seller's address: Abon Enterprises (aka Aboncom) 115 Park Ave West Mansfield, OH 44902 SGS's address: Star Grading 1610 State Route 60 South Ashland, Ohio 44805 Here is a map of Ohio...they are down the road from each other!! http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/state/ohio.html ********* Also, it has been reported that the same company/person owns BOTH domain names! If you really believe that a this "grading" (and I use that term loosely) company only grades and authenticates MS70 or PR70 coins for 99% of their coins... If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck... Sure, ebay is claiming they want to clean up coin grading and all coins that are sold "should" represent ANA grading procedures, but I believe this seller is not ethical. Buyer beware...stick with the top four graders and deduct 3 to 7 points for the others.
I have seen entirely too many SGS "graded" coins that appear to be very far from their stated grade. If you see a coin in an SGS slab, consider the coin, not the slab. If you feel the coin is worth the money and it's something you want, go for it. Just do not be swayed by whatever grade is on the slab. They are not a respected TPG and extreme caution should be used when purchasing one of them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10768&item=3943034475 See Ebay auction # 3943034475 This will give you a good idea of how reliable this grading service is. As far as I know, there are NO MS70 mint state quarters, I think MS68 is the top for any year, yet this seller has a COMPLETE SET of D mint state quarters graded MS70! WOW! Can he get away with this? Every time I see something like this, I think about the loving person that wants to leave a valuable legacy to their grandchildren and will spend a ton of money to get something that would be worth thousands of dollars if it were real. Really burns me up! I don't think Ebay is interested in doing anything to remedy this. The problem is that grading is simply an opinion of condition. Rarely would 50 people all come up with the same grade for a coin. Everyone has a right to think their coin is anything they want it to be, so MS70 could legitimately be different things to different people, but being 'officially' encapsulated lends an air of credibility to the grade that some uninitiated folks will take as gospel. As a result, they will feel comfortable spending lots of money for the coins. I suspect Ebay is willing to sit back and let the market take care of its self, that is, this will eventually go away if enough people realize they've been duped and put the seller out of business. The only problem in this case, the buyer may never know that this is a bad deal. A savvy buyer will avoid this seller like the plague, or will, at least, immediately recognize the departure from generally accepted market standards, but in many instances, only the heirs who will try to sell these coins later on will learn of this. Then, they will get mad at the dealer who only wants to pay face value for the coins and think the dealer is trying to rip them off. Bad for business all the way around. I don't know how to protect people from this kind of dealer because if his opinion is that the coins grade MS70, then that's his right. And if he wants to encapsulate them and sell them at his grades, he can do that, too. No TPG company is 100% consistant, and grading/market standards can change over time, so who is really to say that all these MS70 coins can't be graded that way? It's all just a matter of opinion. It's a real quandry. Maybe a computer program that will consistantly grade coins?
This is exactly why it is so important to get new collectors involved in forums such as this one. There will always be people who will refuse to learn from others, but forums give the people who want to learn a chance for discussions with people who have already learned many of these lessons. The internet has provided an excellent opportunity to educate anyone about anything. It is a shame that people don't always take advantage of this great opportunity. For myself, when anyone has emailed me with a question on buying coins, the first response I give them is a link to this forum with a suggestion to join and learn.
Yea, I'm pretty new to the TPGers too, but this certainly looks fishy when you take a deeper look. Go through the feedback, page after page, and it's like any negative comment are buried in A+ responses from the same buyers again and again. I know, there buying multiple items and leave the exact same feedback for a whole page. Wow. Another angle came up for me recently. I typically look at the modern coins in high mint or proof graded by the top TPGers. I came across a 1904 Double Eagle on ebay that got my interest, problem was it was graded by PCI. It took me a little while to research it, and it wasn't the graded they had that bothered me. I planned on crossing it over and taking the hit. But what concerned me was the authentisitcy of the coin itself. You know PCGS or NGC would sniff it out quickly. Then what do you have. Nothing. Oh, and the seller had a return policy, but it had to be returned as it was sent out (in the PCI slab). Sort of puts you in a rock and a hard place, like rolling the dice.
As a rule I do not comment on the grading ability of the various services. If you have been around for even a little while I'm sure you have heard opinions about ACG. If you have a choice between ACG and SGS, pick ACG.
ok here is the information your looking for first www.abon.com Domain Name: ABON.COM Administrative Contact: Sparks, Eric esparks@abon.com 115 Park Ave. West Mansfield, OH 44902 US 419-522-5346 next one sgs Domain ID93334068-LROR Domain Name:STARGRADING.ORG Created On:21-Dec-2002 14:19:57 UTC Last Updated On:17-Dec-2004 21:53:49 UTC Expiration Date:21-Dec-2005 14:19:57 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR) Status:OK Registrant ID:tuE9knShR87KNKVq Registrant Name:Larry Bence Registrant Organization:Star Grading Service Registrant Street1:115 Park Ave West Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Mansfield Registrant State/Province:OH Registrant Postal Code:44902 Registrant Country:US Registrant Phone:+1.4195225346 Registrant Phone Ext.:120 Registrant FAX:+1.4195226379 Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:lbence@abon.com Admin ID:tuE9knShR87KNKVq Admin Name:Larry Bence Admin Organization:Star Grading Service Admin Street1:115 Park Ave West Admin Street2: Admin Street3: Admin City:Mansfield Admin State/Province:OH Admin Postal Code:44902 Admin Country:US Admin Phone:+1.4195225346 Admin Phone Ext.:120 Admin FAX:+1.4195226379 Admin FAX Ext.: Admin Email:lbence@abon.com Tech ID:tu7nE6WTMNd6501i Tech Nameomain Administration Tech Organization:Hostica.com Tech Street1O Box 7537 Tech Street2: Tech Street3: Tech City:Torrance Tech State/Province:CA Tech Postal Code:90501 Tech Country:US Tech Phone:+1.3104068885 Tech Phone Ext.: Tech FAX:+1.3102120191 Tech FAX Ext.: Tech Email:noc@Hostica.com ----------------------------------------------- i think that clears it up, its one and the same person run from the same address
its a diffrent name but the same address, either its a partnership or hes using 2 names which in itself is not illegal.just to diquise the fact its the same company.I suspect though if its a limited liability company he will be using a company secretary or something which is maybe his brother in law.
ok this is getting very intresting now first there is no company registered at that address with ohio state, nor is there one registered with this name or variants of it. im still working on it, they claim to have 7% of all coins in there slabs on there website so why not registered in the state as a buisness? even a trading as, ie a subsiduary of a parent company. i continue my search to find the links
ok ive found out that larry bence the registered owner of the sgs website was/is affiliated with AGS grading company and became a main distributer for there sport cards. Larry Bence is the owner and president of Abon Cards and Coins ??? so hes the owner of abon too so who is the other guy thats registered the site for abon.com and what is a coin dealer doing owning a grading company as well. the plot thickens
I think the plot is as muddy as it can get. Let's call a spade a spade. This ebay seller is marketing his own "grading service" (I use that term loosely). He dangles MS70 and PR70 coins to newbies and sells them as professionally certified and graded. He is slabbing his own coins with gold foil tape and cheap plastic. His ads point out a printed "Certificate of Authenticity" which is nothing more than cheap green 24lb. paper. No serial numbers on the slab and no way of looking up coins in a registry. Shame on ebay for allowing this. When you sell a coin on ebay, you have to check off that the coin in question adhers to ANA standards, but this seller found a loop hole by using a 2nd company that he owns to "certify" them. Just freakin' terrible.
After reading all these very good posts from individuals who have taken the time to investigate the situation, you should know by now that a smart person would distant themselves from SGS as far as they can get. Yank those coin from those holders with SGS on them and either keep them raw or have them re-slabbed. Take the loss that I'm sure you will experience.
One of the things Ebay does on some auctions, is to add a disclaimer when the seller puts the item up for bids warning that is illegal to sell fake coins or copyrighted material or unsafe toys. Maybe they could take that one step further and have the seller actually click/sign a statement that they accept these regulations and restrictions with penalties for sellers that violate. Tough to do with coin grading, though. Especially TPG's. Any TPG coin can be subject to crackout hoping for a higher grade next time. Different 1st tier TPG'ers can be relied upon to overlook some things that might cause another TPG to render a lower grade on a coin. Inconsistancy is the name of the game. That being the case, it would be tough for Ebay to arbitrarily set it's own coin grading standards and to inspect each coin being offered to ensure that it complies with those standards. It would be tough to apply any single set of standards to every coin offered. I think SGS can only be dealt with in a way that would prevent them from slabbing his own coins and selling them. Some kind of industry wide standard covering dealers like that. I don't think Ebay can or should do that. It is the coin industry as a whole responsible for letting this type of seller exist, since no regulations exist to prevent it.
Thanks Highlander, I knew about the Abon Cards and Coins and SGS connection but I did not know the connection between AGS and SGS. Today AGS only grades sports cards but 3 years ago they also briefly ran a coin grading division as well. AGS got out of coin grading about months or so before SGS appeared on the scene. I would suspect that SGS evolved from AGS but AGS graded and certified all coins in various grades while SGS is mostly moderns and pretty much everything is 69 and 70.
Here's an old,but very relevent thread about Scumburger 'Grading' 'Services',Aboncom,& stevesgiftshopp. Aidan.