Coin Show Security

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by JCB1983, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. Cringely

    Cringely Active Member

    I must say that I am disheartened by many of the responses to JCB1983's inquiry. A few humorous responses are usually a hallmark of CoinTalk (see the AdamL's prior post) and I enjoy them.
    However, the negative/snarky tone on this thread is beneath what I've come to expect from CoinTalk. From what I can see, JCB1983 has an honest desire to get involved with security. There has not been a single piece of evidence his motives are anything but honorable. In any of his prior posts (either on this thread or any other) has there been any evidence of dishonesty or poor character?

    Yes, we can show concern about motives, but, in the absence of improper motives, why not make positive suggestions as to how JCB1983 could get involved. For example, how to contact the head of security for various coin shows to ask them how he can get involved. Why should we be discouraging someone who appears to have a desire to do something positive? If his goal is unrealistic, then we should say that and explain why it is. Otherwise, why not try to help out a fellow CoinTalker?
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  3. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    This is a paramount concern these days. I know dealers at the Naugatuck show who have been robbed leaving there or even tailed going back home. For thieves, robbing a coin dealer does not draw FBI interest like robbing a bank and is generally more lucrative.

    I have been robbed of thousands by a vest pocket dealer who I too trustingly let look through my coins. I know leading U.S. dealers who will not do significant shows because of thieves that are known and suspected but too wily to be caught and put behind bars! Remember, for the cops to nail someone you must have definite proof and you the aggrieved party must connect the dots for them. Mostly they are not being paid based on performance so what is their actual incentive to pursue your case and get a result?
  4. Cringely

    Cringely Active Member

    I agree security is of paramount concern. We certainly don't want someone of questionable character "guarding" us or our valuables. I guess what I was trying to say is that we should point those who are interested in security to an entry point where they can be hired (and vetted) in a security role, not ridiculed because of their desires.

    As far as dealers, I've been lucky enough not to had financial transactions with ones like Owle mentioned. I am aware of at least one in the SF Bay area and would never deal with or recommend him. Sometimes, an internet search can tell you a lot about a dealer and his/her reputation.
  5. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    The smart ones know how to bury negative feedback in searches of their business or name, there are companies that will do this for you. Yes, there are overly critical, impossible to please customers, but most people are reasonable. If you go to a show and talk to an honest dealer, and ask him/her about a dealer who is not scupulous, it is unlikely you will be told the honest truth for fear of consequences. Life is a two way street for everyone and every transaction, we all need to play by the rules and have little tolerance for larceny.
  6. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    Thank you all. As coin geezer stated I am fairly new to the coin world, and have yet to establish credibility. I thought that this might be a good opportunity to do so. Tyvm for the detailed responses and I'll leave it at that.
  7. TheCoinGeezer

    TheCoinGeezer Senex Bombulum

    I said no such thing.
  8. USS656

    USS656 Here to Learn

    You should know this already but if you don't, let this be a warning:

    If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything!

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Enough ! All of you !

    Either stick to the topic at hand and refrain from making the personal comments, or I'm gonna start handing out infraction points.
  10. blu62vette

    blu62vette Member

    When at the show talk to PPI, the security team they use about helping them in the future.
  11. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Before signing out, I recalled an interesting incident. At a coin show I attended while still in college, I was talking with one of the sellers I had bought some coins from and in all innocence asked about security at shows. He first gave me a strange look and sugested that I don't ask anyone else. He then replied that this show had plain-clothes security that he could alert simply by catching their eye and then looking toward me to have me followed for the rest of the show.
  12. koen

    koen New Member

    I do not know how security in the US works.
    Here in Belgium you need to follow classes for it to get the right paper work.
    After that you get a safety research dne, and after that you have to get a badge from the ministery of inlands affairs (dont know the right word for that)

    Only if you have done those things you can work security.
    Even if you where in the army, or a cop in the past you still need to go trough these steps or you wont be able to work legaly as a security guard.

    Maybe it is best you find out what company does the security of that show, and contact them.
    Ask them if they are intrested in your services, and who knows it will work like that.
  13. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    Hello all, I would just like to add that by no means did I mean post count reflect numismatic experience. We had an introduction from a guy yesterday who had 46 years experience. What I was trying to say is that I have made numerous transactions/held contests, and even posted family pictures. It wasn't like I would be completely out of the blue. Btw I really enjoy the ct community and continue to post. Dear abbey can take notes.
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Jason you could be the most trustworthy guy in the world, but you would have little if any chance of at all of being able to work as security at a coin show. Primary reason for that is as several have already said - the people who hire security for coins shows almost always hire off duty cops, and only off duty cops.

    And if someone actually chose to hire private security, they would contract with a company. And then you would have to be an employee with that company to work security.

    What I am saying is that private individuals stand no chance of ever being hired as security at a coin show.
  15. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    And that is the way it should be. Basically, you need someone who is unimpeachable. We see cases of insiders at banks and in finance using their position to steal or to conspire with those who steal. With the popularity of "crime and punishment" shows on TV, and the stories in real life, no one is going to take a chance with a security person unless they are 110% competent and clean as the driven snow.

    I was talking with someone with 100s of thousands in gold and precious metals at a show and he gave a scenario how organized crime would pull off a robbery at a show: hold a lady hostage and then use that to get all the dealers to capitulate and hand over their guns and valuables. I'm surprised that a major heist has not occurred already with all the $$$ so easily fenced with the Russian or Mexican mafias.
  16. TheCoinGeezer

    TheCoinGeezer Senex Bombulum

    One would be forced to wonder the fate of the lady hostage in that scenario.
    I'm sure there are some dealers who might not give up so easily.
    The worst thing you can do is give away your gun, you have zero chances then.
  17. Cringely

    Cringely Active Member

    One possible problem with a major heist at a coin show is the number of attendees with cell phones. The minute someone pulls a gun, someone would call 911 and, unless the coin show was in a remote location, there would be cops all over the place is a relatively short time. Most likely, you would then have a hostage situation. Not to mention that a number of the hostages might be "carrying". It would make a nice plot for a TV show.

    Fencing works if the coins are anonymous, but dealers who have photos of their rarer coins have (in the past) been able to recognize them and recover them. One specific example is a EAC friend who is a major dealer in early copper coinage. Many years ago, he had nearly $1 million in coins stolen from his car (the thieves followed him after a show). The thieves (Russian) were caught and sent to jail, but not before disposing of many of the coins. Last year, while looking at coins offered by a major auction house, he recognized a couple of coins ("coincidentally" consigned by someone also in Russia) as looking like some of the ones stolen from him. He was able to determine that a few dozen of the coins in this auction were his. He contacted the auction house, and after showing (photographs, police reports, etc.) proof of ownership, he was able to recover them. Unfortunately, he has not recovered all of his coins and is still out hundred's of thousands of dollars.
    Part of the moral of this (slightly off topic) story is that you should document your coins (at least the valuable ones) in case of theft or other loss.
  18. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on

    Why does it have to be a lady hostage????

    And I agree, it would be stupid for people to give up their guns. If you think about it in any situation like that, giving up your guns or complying with anyone's demands who has a hostage or comes in to rob someone may or may not save your life or anyone elses. You are simply trading on the already offensive person's claim that no one will get hurt if you comply. How can you trust anyone who is willing to put people in harm's way just for money????? And some go in already knowing they will harm the people if they can do so and get away, so I think people are better off fighting back or not complying.
  19. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    If the bourse is small enough, i.e. a large room but no separate rooms, anyone doing anything with a phone could be targetted. The gang announces immediately their usual loud, stern warnings, maybe shoots or kills someone to show they are serious. Handcuffs all attendees or ties them up to give them running time.

    It is easy to fence precious metals; type gold coins can be broken out of their holders and sold raw at a flea market or to a drug gang. They know all the tricks; they are not going to fool around with an esoteric rare variety that is easily tracked or currency that is easily identified by serial numbers.
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That really has nothing to do with it Owle. They use off duty cops - any off duty cop, that is willing to take the job.

    And believe it or not, cops are no different than any other group of people. Some of them are worse than the bad guys.
  21. BUncirculated

    BUncirculated Well-Known Member

    No kidding. We had the police chief, and two sargeants convicted of crimes at the same time, and all are currently in jail serving their time.
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