CAC Tales

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by GoldFinger1969, Nov 13, 2020.

  1. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    I'm not a fan of CAC. It's just another dumbing down of the collectors. Can't trust your own grading, buy it in plastic. So clueless and scared that you can't trust the plastic, buy it with a sticker. But who judges the stickerer? Maybe we need another sticker to confirm the opinion of the first sticker?

    Having seen enough CAC coins I can say that some are nice, some average, and some below average. One coin I purchased (sight unseen) with a CAC sticker had an obvious problem (carbon spot scratched off). The original TPG ended up buying it back.
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  3. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    How did you tell the carbon spot was scratched off ?
  4. Derek2200

    Derek2200 Well-Known Member

    Some CAC coins PQ some not.

    The sticker won’t sell the coin if potential buyers don’t like it.

    Saints that are spotted are C coins / low end in my view stickered or not. Pass on them.

    I did buy some CAC coins offered at my table (show) not long ago settled w guy at 78 pct CDN bid. It was an all or nothing deal.

    Learn how to grade and look at coins. Otherwise you should not be buying them especially if you can’t gauge what will sell.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  5. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    Somebody used a needle to remove it. They scratched it off and at the same time ended up scratching the surfaces. There was a tiny round area where the coin had numerous scratches up and down. It was a poorly done job.
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  6. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    No CAC on these. All 4 coins are MS66. He said the luster wasn't MS66.
    40255822_Large.jpg 40255821_Large.jpg 40467407_Large-1.jpg 40262115_large.jpg
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  7. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    Everybody grades differently....PCGS, NGC, CAC, the dealer, the buyer.
    It shouldn't come as a shock that JA does not like some coins.
    After years of looking at beaned coins, I have a pretty good idea that C-B-D just answered the question.

    Take another look at his coins and reread what he said.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  8. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

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  9. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    It’s had to judge luster from pictures, but those dimes look spectacular. I have one that is close to those in an MS-65 holder. The large cent looks to be even nicer for the grade.

    The story was CAC started out as a way to mark coins that JA would be willing to buy sight unseen. Now it has become the platinum standard for some collectors who have idea that CAC stickers only the best for the grade.

    On average, they do get it right, but “average” says that sometimes they don’t. That can go both ways as is shown by the four “rejects” shown above. I have a picture file of coins were CAC missed the mark in the other direction.
  10. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    Lehigh, I get because of the minimum cost per coin that Saints probably have fewer collectors than stuff that can cost $20 per coin. But Saints have collectors with lots of skin in the game...and a pretty large collector some influential Big Hitters and dealers.

    Do you really think Saint collectors are powerless to do anything about overgrading relative to other coins ? I think if anything ALL collectors are EQUALLY powerless, with Saint collectors not being at any relative disadvantage.

    I would think that if anything Saint collectors would have had MORE power to stop overgrading than lower-priced coins.
  11. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Many of the collectors of high end Saints are very wealthy people who don’t have the time to learn the minutia of grading and rely solely on the TPGs and CAC. I’m sure that there are some numismatists who collect high end Saints, but my guess is that they are in the minority.

    If you don’t believe me, think about how many high end collectors you see wasting hours each day posting on various coin forums.
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  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Why do you think that ANY collector has influence over the grading issue with respect to PCGS and to a lesser extent NGC? Knowledgeable collectors buy the properly graded coins and leave the over graded ones for the those who don’t know any better and those who profit from the “gifts” the grading services sometimes provide to those who send coins into them.

    There are very few people who are going to send in an over graded coin and demand that it be downgraded. What they will do is sell such coins at the grade on the holder or offer those coins at “bargain prices.”

    As a practical matter, for most collectors, making money from their collections when it’s time to sell is a distant memory. I know I’d lose money on my collection. If you can stop the bleeding with a slightly over graded coin, especially when it’s one that’s hard to find, you will go for it.

    The only way a collector to fight back against over grading to reject the slab brand, and that has happened many times. The most famous case involved a slab company that sued those who published articles stating their products were routinely over graded. The idea was to intimidate people into accepting their product. It didn’t work. The company went out of business.

    As for the “big two,” they very rarely listen to collectors. They are right; you are wrong; now shut up. One company bans those who complain about their grading on their site. The other is far more tolerant, but their blog is, at best a distant second, to the other one.
    Lehigh96 likes this.
  13. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

  14. jtlee321

    jtlee321 Well-Known Member

    I have no problem with CAC. I happen to find it a great way to justifiably charge more for coins I decide to sell. It confirms my grading opinion on the coin before I buy it. I have only bought 1 or 2 coins with a CAC sticker already on them. Everything else have been CAC naked.

    I have a submission of 14 coins at CAC right now.
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  15. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    JA quit or got sacked at 2 grading companies and started on this Quixotic quest to shame them over expanding the grading scale.
    The industry feeling was that there was a huge concentration of coins at 64 and none at 66 or 67.
    Anyway, he has always had this vendetta and peculiar obsession over saints.
    Most hard core saint collectors understand he is out of his mind and ignore him.
    He will bump a full grade or more for luster & we are generally 'technical' collectors rather than market graders.

    BTW....The TPG's have done a great job grading saints.
    What you see for sale are mistakes that remain unsold for years.
    Look at people's collections for representative grade examples.

    He is good with proof coins & some other stuff. (not early copper)
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  16. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

  17. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Do you understand that is not my view, but rather my interpretation of the quote posted earlier in this thread? And that quote isn’t from JA so I’m not sure what you are talking about.
    baseball21 likes this.
  18. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    My understanding was he left voluntarily but I wasn't there. Maybe the vets can chime in.

    That's normal, so what's the problem with that -- why was the "industry's feeling" upset ?

    You'd expect fewer coins as you go up higher, right ?

    Doesn't luster matter ?

    Also, if he is so tough on Saints (as per the low CAC sticker rate)...and you say hard-core Saint collectors think he is to tough...wouldn't including luster show flexibility and grading liberally ?

    I see nice coins on HA and GC. Most of the junky stuff shows up on Ebay -- mediocre quality and WAY overpriced.

    Good to know, thanks !
  19. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

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  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, I could tell right away that you are a CAC fan and advocate. Now that I understand that you are a dealer, I understand your motivations.
  21. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    Saints are the 2nd most popular pre-33 gold coin to collect after 2 1/2 Indians.
    Check out the number of registry sets at PCGS and compare.

    The original TPG problem was the distribution of saints.
    There were, for example 4000 MS64 - 100 MS65 & maybe 10 MS66

    The 66's were moon money & the 65's were in tight hands so that left the 64's
    That meant the average collector had to search through hundreds of them at a show that were by today's standard anywhere from 64-C to just missing 66.

    They pulled the best 64's up to 65 and promoted the others.
    They needed to because people were getting frustrated.

    Anyway...JA had a complete meltdown....

    (This is also where the rattler/OGH insanity started but that is another story)
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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