Another Khudarayaka jital

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by dougsmit, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Sometimes ridiculous prices are seen for common examples of these especially on ebay. I have a lot of these (50+). Most come from the junkboxes at fairs or unattributed mixed lots. Some came directly from Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is no official export from India but a lot of these have been shipped from there to the UK in the past. There really are plenty of these around. For 90% of my bull & horseman jitals i paid between 2 and 10 Dollars. Here in Europe that's still the current price you can get these for with a little patience in waiting for the right opportunity.
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I traded off a few of my duplicates to a small dealer who then listed a Tye 14 at $65 but I don't know what the final sale price was. $10-15 would be fair. I still have a Tye 3 which is not nice enough anyone would want it for their only Shahi but there are very few people who care enough about the difference that they would pay more for an ugly 3 than for a mid-level 14. I paid more for the one that replaced/upgraded it but I'm strange. I wonder what I'll pay for a Tye 1 when I see one? It is just a matter of whether you want a bull or the bull. The question is whether the coins below all seem the same or all seem different.
    os6300bb3162.jpg os6398bb2670.jpg os6400bb2573.jpg os6540bb2575.jpg
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  4. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    I appreciate seeing the differences here in the few examples you showed.
    Your last one is the most intrigueing because it is not listed in Tye. In addition i never could find a definite answer to what the character behind the horseman should be. It resembles a Devanagari "E". But that script did not exist yet at the time. The script on the coins is commonly described as Sharada. I could not find a truely matching character in the script.
    I probably would not pay much extra if i would encounter a Tye#1 type. I have come to the conviction that Tye#1 actually may not exist. Mr Tye made the distinction between type#1 and 2 partly based on the assumption that the text in front of the horseman in type 1 was cursive Bactrian. The text on the type 2 was supposed to be degraded Brahmi. Likely however, the text in the type 2 also is cursive Bactrian, and written in a more correct form than the text on type 1. So type 1 may just be a bit degraded variant of type 2.
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  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    What is the 'theta' under the horse?

    If the type was issued for 400 years and rulers changed every 5-10 years on average, there could be hundreds of variations we have never suspected if they were linked to the rulers. If they were made different by issuing magistrates, there could be several times that number. We know so little.
  6. wmichael

    wmichael Active Member

    I got a lot of ancient and near modern coins from the same guy over the years. At the same time I got 4, 8 Maravedis that are so over stamped it makes my eyes spin. Had no idea what they were, I was only a US collector at the time, 15-20 years back. By the by, this is all at Gun Shows. There are often great coins there.
  7. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian Supporter

    I bought a handful recently myself, because of their importance as early US colonial coinage. I don't have the references to research them, however.

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  8. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    These are some kind of mintmark undoubtedly. The only systematic association i noticed is that in Tye#3,4 and 7 these marks (if present) are always located between the front and back legs of the horse. In Tye#6 and also in Khudarayakah, Tye#22 the symbol is between the front legs of the horse.
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  9. wmichael

    wmichael Active Member

    John, I've got a major LUST issue with 4 of those already! But, really, don't your eyes spin just a little trying to see them? How many have the 1641 counter stamp?
    Yes, that was our money also back in days. When the US dropped the legal use of them, think how many of our early coins got made of that copper. Another restamp!
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  10. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks, 5 years later, @dougsmit. I am reviving this thread after it helped me to confirm the identity of this rediscovered coin in my collection, a Tye 23 the same as the OP coin - previously "unidentified AR jital". Along with this post, your informative page on this family of coins, and this type catalogue from Robert Tye were useful in decoding.
    Jital Bull Horse.jpg
    Kabul Shahi Kings, Khudrayaka, 850-875 AD
    Obv: Brama Bull Nandi recumbent left, Tamga on Hindquarters
    Rev: Horseman riding right, holding lance, two Brahmi aksharas above
    Ref: Tye 23
    Notes: An ashkara is a minimal articulatory unit for Indic languages. The silver jital was introduced ~750 AD. The Shahi’s were a wealthy Hindu dynasty that ruled in parts of what is today Afghanistan and Pakistan.
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  11. Denis Richard

    Denis Richard Well-Known Member

    Hello Doug,
    I was wondering if you might share some of your coin knowledge with me regarding a coin I shot recently as part of a collection The collection contained no information about the individual coins. I've seen coins similar to it on your page and postings here on CoinTalk. You seem to be the person everyone quotes or refers to. I was hoping you could tell me something about it, for starters, which is obverse and reverse?

    Silver Jital Zebu_ALTMORE1.jpg

    Silver Jital Zebu_ALTMORE2.jpg
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  12. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Supporter! Supporter

    @Denis Richard, I think you have this coin (#15 from Jitals by R. Tye) there is one on Doug's page here.
    While I claim no expertise in these coins, from the few that I have seen, yours seems to be a surprisingly nice coin.

    Afghanistan, Ohind, Shahis, AR Jital or Drachm, Samanta Deva, 10th Century AD, 3.3g, 69% silver
    Obv: Horseman with Banner
    Rev: Seated Bull with Hump
    Note: a silver coin minted in the Kabul-Ohind region of modern Pakistan and Afghanistan in the tenth century AD, called a "bull and horseman" drachm or jital of the Shahis or Hindu Shahiyas of Kabul and Ohind. Samanta Deva does not appear to be a personal name and translates to a title of "feudatory chief".
  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE


    HUNS Nezak Huns - Spalapati Deva AR Jital 750-850 CE Horseman-Bull Tye 5

    Islamic Ghorids of Ghazna AE Jital Muhammad Sam Mu'izz al-Din AH 567-602 - AD 1171-1206
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  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'm glad someone answered the question addressed to me. Reviving a thread from the distant past is not a good way to find information. I often skip those threads and only saw this one by chance. I am spending a lot less time here now that posts in the ancient section are more likely to be from people who do not know they are posting in the ancient section or who think 'ancient' means before they were born. If the current prices of coins continues after the Covid problem abates, there will be no reason for me to go to coins shows when they resume so I will be out of the hobby. Not adding coins to the collection makes me less inclined to research. Thanks to Sulla80 for stepping in here.

    This is a mistake on their part. My pages served their purpose when the Internet was young and there was little material on ancient coins. I stated clearly on the index page that they were amateur efforts until people who should be writing such pages came along and made them obsolete.

    "This page is very much a 'fast food' or 'pop culture' approach to the subject of ancient numismatics. I am an amateur collector and offer no guarantee of completeness or accuracy on any material on this site. I recommend that you research your questions rather than accepting blindly anything posted here. I also recommend you apply this same degree of care in using any other source material online or in hard copy. This site was intended to expose new collectors to an enjoyable hobby. No claim is made to serious scholarship. Serious numismatists are also welcomed here while they await publication of more proper and scholarly coverage of this material."

    Those days are gone. I have been considering asking that my web pages be taken down completely since the errors I have discovered bother me and I have lost access to correct them. I am a big supporter of the concept 'First, do no harm' and never foresaw my amateur pages being harmful to my hobby. I do wish there were someone who would like to take over their maintenance (assuming they could gain access to them and had the computer skills I lack).
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  15. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    One of the first times i diagree with you. I have been looking through a lot of old literature on the subject recently. Lots of errors there also. Still, studying how knowledge grew, was shared and changed over time is indispensable when trying to gain a current in-depth insight. In this respect your webpages have become part of the historic knowledgebase which will never become obsolete i believe.

    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  16. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Supporter! Supporter

    I too feel this is a point worth challenging...
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  17. Denis Richard

    Denis Richard Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much. This drawing looks just like the coin. I can narrow my search for additional information about it. Thanks again. For the record, contrary to Doug's own opinion, it appears many people, including me, believes he has an extensive amount of knowledge about this topic. I see his name referenced more places a than anyone else. Granted, I'm new to numismatics by comparison, but Doug, you cover a lot of ground. Thank you for it.
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