AMCC Auction - Pre- vs. Proxy Bids

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by gsimonel, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. gsimonel

    gsimonel Supporter! Supporter

    I noticed that the current AMCC auction allows both pre-bids and proxy bids. (Pre-bids are entered immediately; proxy bids are held back by the bidding platform until live bidding begins.)

    Is there any particular advantage to using one type over the other? Does anyone have a preference for one format or the other?
     
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  3. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    I did all mine as pre-bids. That way I could peruse them, see what I liked, bid my max I was comfortable and then not worry about it. Not sure if there is an advantage one way or another.
    That being said, I've been outbid on all of my stuff already :(
     
  4. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    Given the choice of pre bids and proxy bids, I almost always choose proxy bids.

    If I were to use pre bids, I would always have to pay my max amount if I won the coin, while I might get the coin cheaper if I use proxy bids.

    Also, other bidders would immediately know that, if I put in a pre bid, they would just have to bid up just one more increment to win the coin, but with proxy bids, they don't know my max bid
     
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  5. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    I don't believe this is true. Say a coin has a starting bid of 50 Euros. User A comes and places a max bid of 65 Euros. The auction will list the current bid at 50 Euros.

    Now I come in. I see the current bid of 50 Euros, but I have no idea it has a max bid of 65 Euros. However, I really want this coin, so I place a max bid of 100 Euros. Let's say the bidding increment is 5, so now the current bid will be 70 Euros. Other bidders, however, won't know that my max is 100. If someone bids 75, the auction will show the current bid as 75 Euros, and the coin will still be mine.

    By my understanding, proxy bids have one big advantage and one big disadvantage.

    The primary advantage is you can bid on an item without making your interest known. Too often before an auction, two bidders will get into a "pre-auction war." They'll bid up a coin way before the auction date. Now you have two bidders extremely anxious for a coin, because one's personal honor is at stake, and things can get really ugly in those last seconds. Even worse, this bidding can lure what I call "money sniffers." These are people who know very little about coins, but automatically assume that something that's bid up must be interesting, so they bid it up more. Proxy bids, of course, reduce this.

    The primary disadvantage is positioning. This is the old "king of the mountain" analogy, meaning it takes more energy to push someone off the mountain than to prevent someone from pushing you off. A useful positioning point I've noticed is the 500 Euro/Dollar/Pound mark. For a number of auctions, the bidding increment is 20 up to this point, and 50 thereafter. So, if I place a max bid of 500, that means someone needs to increase his/her offer by 10% to beat me. If the coin happens to be worth about 500, that's a tough pill to swallow. Pre-bids have positioning preference over proxy bids.
     
  6. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    On biddr.ch, prebids entered fairly late and live bids at the end take precedence over proxy bids of the same amount (They admit the bidder.ch computer software program does that). I have had several items go to someone else when the hammer price was the same as my proxy bid. However, it is only fair to also say I have won numerous coins at levels below--sometimes far below--or at my proxy-bid maximum.
     
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  7. Harry G

    Harry G Well-Known Member

    I didn't think of that.

    I think the best answer is to bid live then :woot:
     
  8. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    IMHO it depends on the auction, how badly you want the coin, and how expensive you anticipate the coin going.

    If the auction is one where "money sniffers" are prevalent, I'll bid live. I know that it doesn't matter what I pre-bid. If a money sniffer finds it, I have no chance.

    If I'm interested in the coin, but it's not the highest priority, I'll place a moderate pre-bid and then forget about it. I don't want to keep checking that coin, because then I'll get attached. I also don't want to bid live, because I may be lulled into a spur of the moment increase. It's all too tempting to increase that bid by 20 to get it...

    If this is a high priority coin, then I'll place an aggressive pre-bid early on and I'll factor in positioning, so I'll round up to a point where I know the next increment may be painful. My success rate here is very high.

    Similarly, if I'm unsure if the coin will fall in my price range, but I really want it, I'll place a pre-bid for the max I can afford. I usually call this an "insurance bet." It's insurance against me crying because the coin went for something I could have afforded. To date, I've never won one of these, but I slept better.

    Finally, there are what I call "bonus coins." These are coins where I have some interest, and I think may be had at a good price, but aren't worth participating in the auction solely for their sake. There needs to be something earlier in the auction I do really want. If I win this coin, then I'll live bid on the bonus coins.
     
  9. Orielensis

    Orielensis Supporter! Supporter

    I use a mixture of both. If there are no other bidders yet, I make a low pre-bid so that nobody else is going to hope they’ll get the coin for the starting price or slightly above and thus drive up the price. Secondly, I make a proxy bid on the coin that reflects what I am actually willing to pay.

    Biddr does not prevent you to bid twice on the same coin using different methods. This way, one can take advantage of the respective pros of both pre and proxy bidding.
     
  10. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    For many platforms, bidders should be aware that the auction houses are not all honest. Enter a pre bid, for those platforms where the auction houses are notified, and they'll make sure that on the day of the auction "someone" bids up to one level below that. This is no longer rare or isolated. Certainly I never pre enter bids anymore on external systems such as Numisbids (and I gave up on Sixbid when they had the data loss and fraud issue) that notify the auction house of your bids. I also with very good reason suspect many auction houses own platforms for pre bidding.

    Proxy bidding on Biddr is very safe tho as the bid isnt revealed. Safest is bidding on the day
     
  11. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    If there is a coin already very close to my budget, I tend to lean to pre-bidding because of the theory @kirispupis mentioned.
    If the coin is not that high yet, I always stick to live bidding.

    I agree with this a lot. I heard from several people (who are very close to and in auction houses) that this is happening at some auction houses to drive up the price. I am not going to share any auction house names obviously, but be careful, best is live (or proxy) bidding as Andrew mentioned.
     
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  12. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    Well, this has me a bit worried. There are several high priority coins coming up for auction, but I'll be out of town with uncertain Internet access at the time. My plan was to just put in aggressive bids for all of them before I leave, but now I'm wondering...

    One thought, though about proxy bids: For auctioneers who have their own platform, wouldn't they still know? Sure, other bidders won't, but if you're worried about the auctioneer bidding up just under your max, then I doubt proxy bids would help.
     
  13. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    I wait until the near the end of of bid time, make my last effort, win or lose. Hurrah, or, oh well next time. Great post, thanks.
     
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  14. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Supporter! Supporter

    I am also suspicious of pre-bids, but one auction house I can vouch for is CNG as because there auctions end to early in the morning I usually place a high pre-bid based on previous sales with a touch extra and most of the time I usually win with the closest bid not pushing mine to much, in one case $150 off.
     
  15. Nathan B.

    Nathan B. Well-Known Member

    This is a very interesting and informative thread, with good explanations. I learned a lot. Thank you all.
     
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  16. Arcane76

    Arcane76 Well-Known Member

    I won’t say the auction site/house but I like to bid, if possible, random numbers that aren’t even or usual bid increments. For example I entered a bid recently for 288.00. Magically the winning bid was 288.00(mine). What are the odds of that……
     
  17. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    Let's say the bid increment at this level of bidding is 10.00. You bid 288.00, the underbidder bids 280.00 (or 285.00, or even 287.00) : you win at 288.00, that's all. It happens all the time

    Q
     
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  18. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    Just to confirm what @Andrew McCabe and @Pavlos were saying, auction houses do not have access to proxy bid amounts on biddr. We do, however, have access to pre-bid amounts. So if I'm not bidding live I always place proxy bids rather than pre-bids, unless I know for sure the auction house is on the up-and-up (like CNG).

    I'm also suspicious of auction houses that don't offer proxy bids on biddr - it's optional for the auction house. I don't see any reason why not to offer it unless the auction house is shill bidding. :shifty:
     
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  19. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    In a perfect world, there would be no difference in any approach. However, a sad fact of life is that people suck, so allowing any opportunity for exploitation will cost you.

    The downside of pre-bids and proxy bids is that, unless a number of factors align perfectly, live bidders can typically figure out your maximum bid without exceeding it. I have learned to not place "off increment" bids for that reason. If you bid $205.00 and live bidding hit's $200, then they can see your maximum bid which makes it easy to exceed with a cut bid for instance. Of course, if you had bid $200, then depending on the auctioneer mechanics, you might lose that slot....which is bs! The worst are people that tick the price up until you are maxed out purely out of spite. The worst of the worst are sellers that tick the price up to maximize the selling price. This is the reason that the last second is the only rational time to place a bid on something like Ebay.

    Talking about auction mechanics gets me pissed off. I hate shill bidding, I hate Buyer's Fees, I hate accidentally bidding more than intended because the button reset while I was clicking, etc, etc. But, it's just about the only way to get coins without paying ridiculous dealer prices :inpain:
     
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  20. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    Just to add salt to the fire, for those companies not on Biddr, wouldn't they have access to both pre-bids and proxy-bids? After all, they're running the show.

    I would love to know which auction houses do this. I've thought about the auctions I've participated on, but I can't say I've seen definite behavior that would make me suspect any.

    Most of the auction houses I deal with now run their own auctions. The only one left on Biddr I bid with is Savoca.
     
  21. Arcane76

    Arcane76 Well-Known Member

    Thank you, I did not know that. That makes me feel a bit better.
     
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