Another Lion Dollar Newp

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by messydesk, Mar 17, 2022.

  1. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That's a nice 1576 Holland lion daaler, very well struck with a bold date!

    Campen must have struck large numbers of these coins in the 1680s - 90s, since they the ones that show up from time to time on the market for that decade. It also seems that the flan quality also took a nose dive in that period, with noticeably porous flans.

    This is a coin from 1692, with the typical wide flan (43mm) for the period. It is also the next to last date of lion daalder production for Campen. Note the porosity of the metal on both sides, the result of poor flan preparation.

    Dav. 4879

    26.70 grams

    D-Camera Campen lion daalder 1692 Dav 4879 26.70g next to last yr 3-22-22.jpg

    I'll look for my plated Italian half lion daalder today.
     
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  3. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    It was cheap too, 30 euro along with other 3 little coins on eBay. Were there no piedforts ever struck for daalders?
     
  4. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    There are some very rare to extremely rare multiple lion daalders, specifically Dav. 4848 (2 lion daalders, Gelderland); Dav. 4857 (2 lion daalders, Holland); Dav. A8460 (2 lion daalders, Overijssel); Dav. A4863 (2 lion daalders, Utrecht); Dav. 4869 (2 lion daalders, West Friesland); Dav. 4869A (2 lion daalders klippe, West Friesland); Dav. 4871 (2 lion daalders, Zeeland); Dav. 4874 (2 lion daalders, Deventer); Dav. 4878 (2 lion daalders, Campen); Dav. 4878A (2 lion daalders klippe, Campen); Dav. A4882 (2 lion daalders, Zwolle); Dav. A4885 (2 lion daalders klippe, Zwolle); Dav. A4887 (3 lion daalders, Nijmegen); Dav. A4888 (2 lion daalders, Zutphen).

    I do not have a multiple lion daalder. The only multiple that I have is a 2 ducatoons, Holland. 1673. This coin was produced during the war with France, and it has the city arms of Amsterdam on the reverse (XXX, vertical). This is a coin that is decently struck, with an area of weakness on both sides, an outcome of hammer striking.

    Dav. 4932

    65.28 grams

    D-Camera Holland 2 ducatoons 1673 Dav4932 65.28g 3-22-22.jpg
     
  5. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    All I can say is wow! I mean you can barely see a 1 ducaton of Amsterdam in this grade, but a double one!!!Fantastic coin! I have just learned that double daalders existed, tomorrow I’m going to research more!

    PS. I like the type below very much, hope to get one in the future!

    E5DF8E58-FB7D-4F51-A218-6E19BCEB2400.jpeg
     
  6. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Thanks

    That is a very rare and the most beautifully produced of the series, I think. The dies were privately engraved (I forget the name of the engraver). That's Dav. 4931.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
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  7. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I was going to post this coin sooner, but I got diverted by a damaged antique tile that arrived the other day, courtesy of the postal service. Very frustrating!

    Here's my ducaton of Holland, 1673, that I purchased in 2018 through MA Shops. It has the Amsterdam arms on the reverse. It is also very crude, especially compared to the 2 ducatons coin, with an irregularly shaped flan, uneven strike and rough surfaces, probably due to burial or even sea salvage. Also, I think this coin might have been struck over another coin, or the strike rotated. I'm not sure.

    The photo is from the dealer, so I need to fish it out and take a better snap.

    Dav. 4930

    Holland ducaton silver rider1673 Dav. 4930 dealer photo MA Shops 12-18 3-23-22.jpg
     
  8. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    Nice example for the type, but the 2 ducaton is a different class! There was a one ducaton recently sold on ma-shop for 350 euro! I was following it but I decided to wait for a better grade! Another interesting and beautiful coin, in my opinion, is the 1676/7 West Friesland Dukaat!
     
  9. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Yes, the silver ducats are very attractive on the whole, as is the 3 Gulden crowns produced later in the 18th century.

    This is one of the first crowns that I got from an auction, back in 1980 or 1981, a Money Company auction. It is a 3 gulden from West Friesland, 1794, in pretty high grade condition, one of my favorite European crowns the 18th century.

    I believe the obverse design of this coin is sometimes referred to as the "Dutch Maid".

    Dav 1853

    31.54 grams

    D-Camera West Friesland 3 gulden 1794 Dav. 1853 31.54 grams ex Money Co 1980-1 3-24-22.jpg
     
  10. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    Indeed a nice design on the 3 gulden! I like the VOC issue for this type along the other VOC coins:)))) I've always asked myself how was it to buy these coins back in the day, all these wonderful large coins must have been cheaper. I was born in 86' and focused only on large silver coins five years ago! Just remembered about the prinsendaalder, another beautiful dutch coin!
     
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  11. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    The VOC coinage, especially the ducatons, has always been a challenge to acquire. I do have a fake VOC ducaton from Indonesia, that's listed on the website for fakes, but I've never had any luck with the genuine coins. They bring premium bids in auctions, beyond my means at least.

    And speaking of fakes, or imitations if you will, here is my half lion daalder from Asti, in the Piedmont of Italy. It is quite an interesting coin with a colorful background. I ended using three labels for its description:

    Italy 1581-1605
    Imitation ½ lion daalder (talero)
    Asti, Italian Piedmont
    Franco Mazzetti
    Obv.: MOER GNROGV FOE GNFDIN; knight facing right.
    Rev.: CONFIDEN R DNON OE MOVEIVN REGL; lion facing left.
    Debased silver, appears to be plated.
    Rare imitative ½ daalder
    Cleaned
    Fine
    11.5 grams

    In the past, Palazzo Mazzetti, in Asti, was the residence of an illustrious Piedmontese family who made most of its fortune in minting, having publicly obtained the privilege of producing coins as early as at the end of the 15th century.
    The descendants of the family did not always make a perfectly honest use of such prerogative and – as stated in a 19th-century source – often plagiarized other States’ currencies. Some members of the family made huge profits in the early 1600s by “allowing master craftsmen to continue forging foreign coins, usually for merchants who had them made and then exported the counterfeit money to other States.”
    The crime didn’t go unnoticed, and there were even a few death sentences: in 1603, the Senate of the Republic of Venice sentenced two Mazzetti cousins and put a bounty of ten thousand silver ducats on their heads.

    The plating is obvious, with the copper core showing through in several spots.

    11.54 grams

    D-Camera Italy Asti Piedmont half LD 1581-1605 Franco Mazzetti plated imitation 11.5g 3-25-22.jpg
     
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  12. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Dutch crowns are so attractive. I have a few, but mostly I do ancients now. But nice to see 'em on this thread. Here're mine, three centuries worth:

    Netherlands - 1648 lion daler (0).jpg Netherlands - 1757 silver ducat (0).jpg Netherlands - 1801 Riksdollar (0).jpg

    Here's some more recent Dutch crowns - but with Asian chopmarks, Dutch East Indies, presumably? Not sure:
    Chops - Netherlands 1867 & 1871 2.5 gldrs  Mar 2020 (0).jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2022
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  13. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

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  14. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    The only coin that I own from Zutpen is this daalder of 30 stuivers, 1689. As is typical of coins of this type the strike is uneven, the coin worn (apparently they saw wide domestic circulation), and overall quite crude. I think anything VF or better are truly premium coins for this type.

    This coin has some adjustment marks on the reverse. Apparently the flan was somewhat overweight.

    KM 20

    15.97 grams

    D-Camera Zutpen daalder of 30 stuivers 1689 KM 20 delm1097.v.252 GF AVF 15.97g 3-27-22.jpg
     
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  15. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    From 1597 to 1599 Zeeland produced a very distinctive lion daalder. Unlike the typical lion daalder, which has a rampant lion on the reverse, the Zeeland coins have a reverse depicting a lion above and waves below. It is repeated on the obverse's shield. This design is unique to Zeeland; no other mint used this design.

    The result is what I think is the most attractive lion daalders around. A well struck example is something to behold.

    Zeeland lion daalder, 1599

    Dav. 8870

    D-Camera Zeeland lion daalder 1599 Dav 8870 lion and waves 3-30-22.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  16. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    One of those dates is on my want list for Zeeland. Yours is a great looking specimen.
     
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  17. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Thanks.

    I have other dates, but the 1599 is the best struck.
     
  18. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    I am enjoying the pictures and stories of your coins. Please excuse me for my questions as I am not a collector of coins from other countries other than those in the U.S.
    Were the coins in the pictures bought from or through coin dealers in the U.S. Can you give this poor boy information where the coins can be seen first hand or at least a place or person that sells the Silver Lion coins? I probably was duped into buying a 2017 Lion Dollars, .9999, 1 Ounce Silver, in the U.S. that had been graded by NGC, PF70UC, First Release and a 2018 that was graded by NGC, PF70EC. I really liked them and probably paid too much for them as some of you have done. My father had an Admiral Gardner 1808 East India Company, One Penny, which he probably saw in a magazine. Anyway, I don't know much about buying coins from other countries, other than I have read here. You are all a wealth of information that has lead me to some interesting buys. Thanks so much for your information. Please, keep it coming.
     
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  19. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    The coins that I posted were acquired over the years from several sources, including Karl Stephens (US), Schulman (Netherlands), CNG (US), Ponterio and Associates (US, merged with another firm many years ago), dealers at coin shows and my local coin dealer in San Jose, CA.

    If you are interested in buying an example or two of this interesting and historic coins, I suggest that you look at the dealer inventories on websites such as MA Shops (Europe) or VCoins (US). This is a way to assure that the coin you buy is backed up by the seller. I have purchased on eBay as well, and some reputable dealers also sell there, but it is more a gamble generally speaking.

    Here's link to the VCoins page for lion daalders. I have not purchased from the dealers listed, but they do back their coins.

    https://www.vcoins.com/en/Search.as...cords=100&SearchOnSale=False&Unassigned=False

    Here's the link to MA Shops, using lowenthaler as the search criterion. These are almost all European dealers, and the inventory is more extensive than VCoin's. Like VCoins, MA Shops has a return policy for its sellers. However, remember that if you buy a lion daalder from MA Shops, foreign exchange usually applies, plus the added time for shipping from Europe.

    https://www.ma-shops.com/shops/search.php?searchstr=lowenthaler&catid=-1&lang=en

    If you have any more questions, let me know.
     
  20. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

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  21. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That's an interesting coin, Paul. It's from Overijssel. Generally the style of your coin is very similar to the rijksdaalders issued in the first half of the 1600s. There is some weakness mainly in the legends, but that's to be expected with these hammer struck coins. The centers are quite nice.

    Do you have the coin's weight? What did the Dutch dealers say about it, other than it might be a contemporary imitation, which actually adds to the coin's appeal for me. The legends on your coin seem normal to me. Often they get quite muddled on imitations, although I've also seen anomalies on coins from the Netherlands as well, especially with retrograde letters.

    The rijksdaalders from this period are usually quite crude. Apparently the need to produce lots of them precluded the quality of the dies.

    I do have one from this period, but I need to find it! The collection is poorly organized.

    I did dig out an earlier example, with William the Silent on the obverse. This coin came from Karl Stephens over 20 years ago.

    United Provinces, Holland, rijksdaalder, 1592.
    D-8841

    28.63 grams

    D-Camera Netherlands Holland rijksdaalder William the Silent 1592 28.63g d8841 Karl 5-30-22.jpg

    When I find the other coin I'll post it.

    You might try sending the photo of your coin to Karl Stephens for his opinion.

    Thanks for posting your coin.
     
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