Another Lion Dollar Newp

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by messydesk, Mar 17, 2022.

  1. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Deventer is one of the tougher localities for these.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky

    So this coin is from the Netherlands ? What year is this coin ? 1664 ?
     
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  4. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Yes. This became a standard silver coin of trade throughout much of the world at the time, and was used in the American colonies, as well. It was made through the early 1700s, shortly after which the Spanish milled dollar became the standard in the colonies.
     
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  5. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    JUst looking at the area that looks like it was mounted in some jewelry,
    Is rotation common with this coinage?
     
  6. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    These were crudely struck on uneven planchets and often have seemingly arbitrary rotation.
     
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  7. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    Nice!

    I want one of these because they were a classic trade coin.

    John
     
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  8. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    Can you guess this one?

    Screenshot 2022-03-18 at 22-05-37 @passionforcrowns • Instagram photos and videos.png Screenshot 2022-03-18 at 22-05-53 @passionforcrowns • Instagram photos and videos.png
     
  9. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Utrecht, 1638, though I must say the style is somewhat odd, I guess just idiosyncrasies typical of these coins, but it could be an imitation, possibly Transylvania.

    The style of the lion is very similar to the style of West Friesland.

    Interesting coin!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
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  10. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That's a very nice coin and a very scarce mint!

    I've collected these historically significant and fascinating coins for many years, though now I've moved back to ancients, essentially for the past few years.

    I still look around for lion daalders of the 1690s and 1700. Those are hard coins to locate, regardless of mint.

    This is the only lion daalder that I have dated 1700, from West Friesland.

    27.4 grams

    D-Camera Westfriesland lion daalder 1700 27.4g rare 12-5-21.jpg


    This is a coin I bought in around 1981, when a hoard of high grade Holland lion daalders dated 1589 entered the market.

    D-Camera Netherlands, Holland Lion Daalder, 1589,  6-16-20.jpg



    This is another old timer, purchased from Karl Stephens. It is a lion daalder of Batenburg Herman Diederik, 1578.

    Davenport 8575

    26.58 grams

    D-Camera Lion Daalder Batenburg Herman Diederik 1578 26.58g D-8575 Del 559 R1 12-8-21.jpg



    I have a lot of these coins that need to be photographed. They will be posted when available.
     
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  11. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Bingo!

    This lion 1638 daalder of Georg Rakoczi I of Transylvania came by way of the World-Wide auction in May 2017.

    Gamberini 60

    26.8 grams

    D-Camera Transylvania 1638 lion daalder George Rakoczi I gambrini 60 exWW 2017 26.8g 12-20-21.jpg
     
  12. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    I was going to say some of the lettering was in the style of West Friesland. The "TRA" typically means Utrecht, but there was no shield mint mark and the legend, "PRO:REG•TRA" isn't Dutch provincial. Glad you found the Transylvanian one. There are other imitative ones from Italy and Germany, I think. I would use the term "imitation" to refer to something more like a counterfeit, and as far as I know, these other issues were good silver. I still have a few Dutch issuers to go before I start looking for the others, although I'm not holding my breath for finding a Zutphen issue I like and could afford. Schulman has an auction in a few weeks, so we'll see how that goes.
    Looking forward to seeing them. If you need photos, I know a guy. ;)
     
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  13. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Yes, imitation is the term to use for these non-Dutch lion daalders. They were imitated for pretty much the same reason that other types of coins over the past thousands of years were imitated, such as the Athenian tetradrachms of the 5th and 4th centuries BC. It was simply expedient for other rulers and other authorities to produce coinage that is readily accepted widely, than to create a new design that might not be as acceptable.

    I do, however, distinguish between imitative coins produced by an official issuing authority versus coins produced privately, usually plated, with the clear intent to deceive and defraud anyone who has the misfortune of possessing one of these fakes.

    Thanks

    There are, however, some legitimate rulers who did produce plated lion daalders. Perhaps the best known, which you might have encountered, was a lion daalder issued in 1660 in Rietberg, a county in East Friesland, by Johann IV von Ostfriesland-Rietberg, born 1618 and died 1660.

    These coins do show up from time to time at auction or on dealer websites. They are are all very low weight, lower than even by the wide standard for lion daalders, and they generally exhibit areas of plate loss.

    This coin is no exception. The copper or base metal core can be seen in spots on the obverse, especially, but also on the reverse. The legend has two retrograde Ds on the obverse legend. I find the obverse legend pretty garbled and hard, at least for me, to decipher, mainly the last part.

    KM 71.2; Dav. ECT 7326A

    22.16 grams

    D-Camera Lion Daal Rietberg Johann IV 1660 PlatedImitation22.16g KM# 71.2,Dav ECT# 7326A 12-8-21.jpg


    I also have an Italian half lion daalder, also plated, that was issued by ruler who played some hanky pranky with his lion daalders, courtesy of sliver plating. I'll try to photograph it tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
  14. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    You've got it right, it's a Transylvanian piece, but i believe it's an unpublished mule between Km 240.1 and Km 240.2, Rev. legend with 'Dom non' instead of Dno non'.
    These coins were imitations of Rackozy I, but of good quality silver. The Italians had some minted by the Gonzagas, Camilo D'Austria and other rulers, but also some poor silver/silverplated unknown local issues. I've bought this one simply described as a Utrecht 1638 daaler though the difference is obvious!
     
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  15. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Is there a good standard reference to Lion Dollars?
     
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  16. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That must have been a great buy for you, at the price of an Utrecht daalder! I noticed that Heritage made the same error at one of their auctions years ago:

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/netherland...rface-hairlines-some-pitting/a/231750-62326.s

    What they described as "pitting" is actually flan flaws, which are quite common in coins of this period. Refining the silver and producing high quality flans were clearly not priorities back then.
     
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  17. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    My main go-to book on these and other coins cataloged by Davenport is an old reference published by Krause in 1982. It is compact and quite comprehensive, but with few photos. The prices listed in the book are mostly way out of date, but they do provide dates of mintage by mint and any rare dates for a given mint, including those that produced lion daalders.

    The book is out of print, but I do see that a few copies are available on Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Crowns-1484-1968-cataloged-Davenport/dp/0873410629

    Now the book shown on Amazon is priced at $171.82 which is way too high, I think. But, if you select "collectable" I see there is one available at $49.50. I don't know anything about the seller, who seems to be based in Texas. The book in the images has worn covers, but I guess the pages are in good condition.

    This book was reprinted in 1983, but I cannot find any currently available.

    Krause also has new catalogs on world crowns and talers, but only going back to 1601. The old 1982 reference includes crowns produced as far back as 1500.

    Here's a link to the newer reference, again on Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Catalog-World-Crowns-Talers/dp/0873412117
     
  18. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    There was another bidder that noticed the error, but I got it for a decent price, not to mention the fact that’s a mule! I’m not that sure the Heritage piece it’s actually a Transylvanian piece, the head of the knight is a bit different!
     
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  19. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That's true - the knight's head is different stylistically, but the coin's legends seem similar to the Transylvanian coin, and the treatment of the date is very odd. Could this be an imitation of an imitation? Even given the range of styles of the Dutch lion daalders, the Heritage coin is way out there in left field, I think.
     
  20. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    I agree with you, it’s a very strange piece and I’ve just found some more similar pieces ,so I guess it could be 2 heads types!
     
  21. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    Most of my foreign country coins that my father gave me were from the various countries he visited in WWII. I have no clue as to their value.
    Great Britain coins: 1917 One Penny, 1922 One-Half Penny and 1938 Three Pence.
    India: 1943 One Anna and 1944 One-Half Rupee.
    New Zealand: 1941 Bronze Penny.
    and,
    Korea (No date) 100 Won.
    Any idea as to value. They've been in a box since after the end of WW II. I think there were more, but my sister went to stay with our mother after my father died and she went through everything and then when my mother passed... she cleaned house. I did get a box that my mother had that she kept everything we sent to her. That was fun. I now have about 4 journals of letters, cards and pictures.
    Sorry for rambling. You guys are a great source of information.
     
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