Featured An examination of the counterfeit slab epidemic. Scope and advice.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    It looks like an image that was copied and printed. That generally causes a loss in resolution
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    As we meandered through this discussion (much of it my fault going off the OP topic) I think we can agree that the bad slab issue is just a subset of the major issue of Counterfeits in the marketplace.

    Another subset we have touched base on and has been my focus over the past 4+ years is the deceptive struck fakes that find their way into genuine holders.

    There is obviously much experience and expertise commented throughout this post and I wondered quick opinions if any of the following examples shown in the sets of images are bad coins or holders? I apologize for the quality of some of the images- many are stock ones from various internet sites. Also, at least one of these was sold through a major old time US auction house.

    2-158s-2.jpg
    3-NGC.jpg
    2-1806.jpg
    1805-1806.jpg
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Even if true so what? I don’t believe that at all but chnage my mind
     
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    We get that you don't believe this. But you challenge those who who present evidence because it isn't wide spread enough for you. It's like the dangers of the coronavirus two months ago when the Chinese scientist tried to warn people and the Government arrested him. Now he's dead and the Chinese Gov't says they're sorry. I still suspect you've had many pass by you and simply don't care to know it.
     
  6. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    @Marshall any thoughts on the images I posted at the end of this thread?
     
  7. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I can't enlarge the images enough to make even a reasonable guess. But I could be fooled by what I do see.
     
    Paul M. and Jack D. Young like this.
  8. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Because fake Chinese coins are far more of an epidemic than US coins. As a result, all collectors are paranoid with Chinese coins unless they are experts and can tell the difference. When the QR code directs the owner to the certification website with pictures of the coin, they can be compared to the coin in hand and the owner can be assured that the coin did in fact pass through experts’ hands and was authenticated. Not only does it give great peace of mind, it makes fake slabs blatantly obvious if the coins do not match.

    You must be really dense to not realize this and see how this would prevent issues in the future. This solution is stupid simple and there are only upsides and no downsides except that it would require a little more financial resources.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  9. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is my last word on this subject. Are you confident enough in your ability to recognize fakes and the low numbers that YOU would guarantee authenticity to your customers? It shouldn't be a problem if their is no epidemic of fakes.
     
    GoldFinger1969 and Paul M. like this.
  10. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    And all 9 of the "coins" I show in my final image are struck fakes in genuine holders...
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
    Paul M., micbraun and Marshall like this.
  11. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is definitely where I depart company from the "scientific" community. I have studied Meteorology and climatology for forty years and Man caused climate change is a scam to get funding.

    Natural cycles of climate change are so long that as each shifts, the broken record of coldest/hottest/wettest or driest gets repeated. The records are not long enough or accurate enough to come to that conclusion.

    But studying it reaps huge rewards for scientists who shape questions to reach conclusions desired by those funding it. Technically, sea levels will rise if anyone spits into the ocean. But the scales are so enormous it makes no real difference. But you don't get grants with honesty, just with hyperbole.

    So I am on the opposite side at times.

    But back to the discussion at hand, the frequency of counterfeits in legitimate slabs has caused a reaction which causes closer examination. The reaction of the counterfeiters is logically to counterfeit the slabs as well. So ignore this growing problem at your own risk and the risk of the hobby itself. I do not believe this is hyperbole when I suggest it it an existential threat to the hobby.

    Sorry for a second last word, but the man caused climate change hoax is a pet peive of mine. So called scientists do irreparable harm when they sell out their objectivity for mere funding. Scientific no longer means objective and it's a shame.
     
  12. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Climate change is happening. I left the man made part out because it is so controversial. Nonetheless, whatever it is a natural cycle or whatever, recognizing the problem exists is the first step in trying to solve the problem.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  13. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Edit: and here's why politics is prohibited on CoinTalk. I just wasted ten minutes or so on a rant that had no business here. I'm going to go wash my feet.
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Never mind not worth the effort.

    Best of luck to people reading. Do yourselves a favor and actually go look at real facts and real data it's all over the markets everywhere
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  15. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I hope the message in this post doesn’t get lost to the folks picking at the words- the counterfeit issue is large and getting larger; I have had the opportunity to speak with Q. David Bowers on the topic regularly (and finally got to meet him last August at the PNG awards banquet) and he has written notes in several of his latest works regarding the issue and the risk to the Hobby (the latest in the Super Red Book).

    The 1st image is from Dave’s Book on the copper coins of Vermont, the 2nd from the Colonial Newsletter:

    C4-Bowers.jpg
    C-4-nsl.jpg

    Best regards, Jack D. Young EAC 5050
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  16. Hommer

    Hommer Curator of Semi Precious Coinage

    I'm just an unbiased person reading
    I am a collector, I personally scan every avenue daily looking for and at coins. The amout of fakes that I see has tripled in the last 5 years and I'm no expert so there are probably/very likely many more. It doesn't take a fear monger to see that.

    As long as there has been innovation and invention, there has been someone who will copy it. Even the Bureau of Printing and Engraving change designs because of copies. They have the most advanced recipes for counterfeit detergents and yet still have a policing agency in a constant battle against counterfeiting.

    All that being said, there is nothing in a plastic slab that can't be easily copied and to not believe so is foolish, an even bigger foolish mistake is to believe that your competition is an idiot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  17. mynamespat

    mynamespat Well-Known Member

    For an informed collector who frequents the forums and periodicals, these chinese fake slabs are really nothing to worry about. If you compare the fake slabs to authentic slabs, similar to a the newspaper game with the 2 identical images with slight differences, the differences quickly become glaringly obvious. So, I can understand Baseballtwentyone's perspective.

    However, one of the hallmarks of slabs is they lowered the barrier of entry into coin collecting. A person doesn't need to be an expert in the series to purchase. If the consumer can't achieve this because of counterfeits there is a problem.
     
  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Sorry. I wouldn't have brought it up, but I felt compelled to respond when it was.
     
  19. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    You keep saying this, and you keep magically not posting the facts you are alluding to. Makes me think that they don’t actually exist. :rolleyes:
     
  20. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    We’ll see in 5-10 years...

    Just so you know, NGC’s pictures have helped us many, many times when a suspicious NGC slab gets reported.

    Likewise, there have been many times where we have bemoaned the fact that no images were available when a suspicious PCGS slab was reported. They required much more time and effort to analyze and study. But, of course, that system is flawless and will prevent any collector from getting scammed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  21. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    In my opinion the topic of climate change is not political unless you make it so. Whether you believe it is a hoax or real is not political but scientific. I think a very appropo analogy in many ways to the counterfit discussion going on here.

    Sime people think just discussing the fact that there is climate change going on or that Chinese fakes (slabs or coins) somehow is a drag on business or a knock on a particular company is not doing the the human race or coin collecting business or hobby any favors. It is part of a health debate on how to mitigate the damage. No need to place blame anywhere, let's bring the issues to light so we can make the world and coin collecting in a better place for future generations when we are all gone.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page