Featured James II gun money in Ireland

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by jamesicus, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    I have recently become fascinated by this coinage. I wish I would have collected and researched these coins earlier for they are, in my opinion, of great historical interest.

    Gun Money online references:
    1. The Jacobite-Williamite War - section devoted to gun money
    2. O'Brien Coin Guide: James II Gunmoney - an excellent overview and illustrated reference.

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    James II (1685-1688) bronze gun money first series large shilling (1689)

    [​IMG]
    Dublin Mint, Diameter: 25mm, Weight: 5.33gm

    Obverse depiction: James II bust facing left
    Inscription: IACOBVS II DEI GRATIA
    (James the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Royal Crown, centered over crossed scepters.
    Peripheral inscription: MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX 1689
    (King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)
    Inscription above Crown: XII (12 pence=one shilling)
    Inscription below Crown in script: Jan (month of issue)
    Inscription left and right of Crown in script: J R (James Rex)

    Notes:
    1. Early Dublin Mint issue
    …………………………………………………………………………………

    James II (1685-1688) bronze gun money third series half penny (1691)

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Limerick Mint besieged

    Obverse depiction: James II bust facing left
    Inscription: IACOBVS II DEI GRATIA
    (James the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Hibernia seated left holding crucifix aloft in right hand.
    Peripheral inscription: HIBERNIA 1691 (N retrograde)

    Notes:
    1. First appearance of Hibernia (personification of Ireland) on a coin reverse

    ……………………………………………………………………………………

    James II (1685-1688) bronze gun money overstruck third series half penny (1691)

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Limerick Mint besieged

    Obverse depiction: James II bust facing left (overstruck crown shows at center of bust)
    Inscription: IACOBVS II DEI GRATIA
    (James the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Hibernia seated left holding crucifix aloft in right hand.
    Peripheral inscription: HIBERNIA 1691 (N retrograde)

    Notes:
    1. First appearance of Hibernia (personification of Ireland) on a coin reverse (as previous coin)

     
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  3. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

    In September I was in Dublin and also visited the National Museum at Collins Barracks. They have an exhibition (permanent, I think, not sure) called Airgead, about the history of Irish money. (Similarly to the French word argent, the Irish word airgead can mean both money and silver.) Are those "ancient" pieces? ;) Oh well, here are a few photos from the Gun Money dept. so to say ...

    Christian

    gunmo1.jpg gunmo2.jpg gunmo3.jpg
     
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  4. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

    That darn glass. :) In the following images, the reflection is pretty bad, so I had to pick an odd angle, and even that did not work well ...

    Christian

    gunmo4.jpg gunmo5.jpg
     
  5. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

  6. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    I briefly owned this July 1690 halfcrown last year. PCGS graded it AU53. (Pop. 1/0, so presently the "finest known" merely by virtue of being the only one they've graded so far).

    at4Pbr8dToyNsOoA4XGE_35075128_Large.jpg

    [​IMG]


    While metal detecting a field in Essex, UK in 2013, I took a lunch break. As one of my dig partners and I were eating our sandwiches back at the van, he showed me the contents of his find pouch. He'd dug an impressive handful of what the local detectorists refer to as "greenies" - i.e., old coppers.

    I noticed one of them was a James II gunmoney piece, which I thought was pretty neat. So apparently they circulated in England as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  7. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    Wonderful m’lord! An anecdotal story I read while doing some recent research stated that when Protestant Irish soldiers realized that James II had lost the War (he had actually fled the country) they and their families hid their gun money coins, which some of them had a lot of, in their houses in the hope that they could redeem some value from them when peace was restored. That didn’t happen. The reference said that quantities of gun money coins are sometimes discovered whenever very old houses in Ireland are being torn down or renovated. I can’t lay my hands on that reference right now (maybe it occurs in one of the links I provided?) but I will try and locate it.
     
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  8. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    It occurs toward the bottom of the text pointed to in the second (O’Brien) link:
     
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  9. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    I have in my collection a 1723 Hibernia 1/2P and a 1723 Rosa Americana which are both products of the Irishman William Wood but nothing older. I've heard of "Gun Money" before but not paid much attention to it so thank you for making me more curious. I love coins evoking history as yours certainly do and found it interesting to learn also about the appearance of HIBERNIA on the 1691s.
     
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  10. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    You are a collector after my own heart @dadams - thank you! I am in the process of winding down my web presence so please permit me to post the front end of that web page ……………

    COINAGE OF THE STUART KINGS DURING THE
    ENGLISH CIVIL WAR AND THE RESTORATION


    Charles I, Charles II, James II

    Last updated: 1 March 2019

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Introductory Notes:

    1. The Stuarts - Link to this comprehensive online biographical and historical reference resource

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Charles I (1625-1649) Silver Half-Crown (1625)

    [​IMG]
    Tower Mint (Harp), Seaby 2771, North 2207, Diameter: 35mm, Weight: 15.13gm

    Obverse depiction: Charles I wearing crown and holding sword over his shoulder, mounted on plumed caparisoned horse walking left
    Inscription: CAROLVS DG MAG BR FR ET HIB REX
    (Charles by the Grace of God King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)

    Reverse depiction: Garnished oval arms at center.
    Inscription: CHRISTO AVSPICE REGNO
    (I reign under the auspices of Christ)

    Notes:
    1. Conflict with Parliament over the role of the Monarchy and Religion led to the outbreak of Civil war in 1642 - Royalists versus Parliamentarians (Cavaliers and Roundheads) which ended in victory for Parliament in 1648
    2. Charles I remains the only English Monarch to have been exectued. He was charged and tried for treason by Parliament, found guilty and beheaded in London on 30 January 1649
    3. England was governed by Parliament from 1649 until 1660 (Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector of the Commonwealth from 1653 until 1658)

    Charles I (1625-1649) "Richmond" copper Farthing (1625-1634)

    [​IMG]
    Spink 3183, Diameter: 16.25mm, Weight: .51gm

    Obverse depiction: Centered Large Crown with nine jewels over crossed Scepters
    Inscription: CARO DG MAG BRI
    (Charles by the Grace of God Great Britain)

    Reverse depiction: Centered Large Crown with nine jewels over Harp with 6 strings.
    Inscription: FRA ET HIB REX
    (King of France and Ireland)

    Notes:
    1. Tower Mint - Castle mint mark

    Charles I bronze Double Crown weight (c. 1644)

    [​IMG]
    Diameter: 17mm, Weight: 4.50gm, Whithers 292

    Obverse depiction: Crowned bust of Charles I facing left
    Inscription: CAROLVS REX - small B below bust
    (King Charles - initial of Nicholas Briot, Royal coinage die cutter)

    Reverse depiction: Centered Crown over Inscriptional letters
    Inscription: X over S centered below crown with lozenges either side
    (Ten shillings)

    Notes:
    1. These were used by Merchants to verify weights of gold Double Crowns
    2. This one was most likely struck by the travelling mint of Charles I at New Inn Hall, Oxford, by the official Royal die cutter, Nicholas Briot, in 1644.
    3. Numerous coin issues of Charles I were struck at travelling mints as he moved his headquarters with great frequency

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    Charles II (1660-1685) First year (1662) issue Milled silver crown

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Diameter: 40mm (initial issue large flan) Weight: 29.57gm

    Obverse depiction: Draped laureate bust with Rose below (minted using native silver from western Britain).
    Inscription: CAROLVS II DEI GRA
    (Charles the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Four crowned shields, cruciform, the top bearing the arms of England and France quartered, the right bearing the arms of Scotland, the bottom bearing the arms of England and France quartered and the left bearing the arms of Ireland. In the angles formed by adjoining shields are two intertwined C's. At the center is the Star of the Garter.
    Inscription: MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX 1662
    (King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)

    Edge Inscription: * + * DECVS ET TVTAMEN
    (An Ornament and a Safeguard).

    Notes:
    1. Monarchy restored - Charles II - in 1660
    2. Milled coins with edge inscriptions adopted in 1662
    3. Bubonic Plague epidemic 1665-1666
    4. Great fire of London 2 September - 6 September 1666



    Charles II (1660-1685) later (1671) issue Milled silver crown

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Diameter: 38mm (reduced flan size) Weight: 29.58gm
    (flan thickness increased slightly to maintain weight of silver content).


    Obverse depiction: Draped laureate bust.
    Inscription: CAROLVS II DEI GRATIA
    (Charles the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Four crowned shields, cruciform, the top bearing the arms of England, the right bearing the arms of Scotland, the bottom bearing the arms of France and the left bearing the arms of Ireland. In the angles formed by adjoining shields are two intertwined C's. At the center is the Star of the Garter.
    Inscription: MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX 16(71)
    (King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)

    Edge Inscription: * + * · DECVS · ET · TVTAMEN · ANNO · REGNI · VICESIMO · TERTIO
    (An Ornament and a Safeguard) (to deter edge clipping} - followed by date of minting information.

    Charles II (1660-1685) Silver Threepence (1677)

    [​IMG]
    Diameter: 17.58mm, Weight: 1.43gm

    Obverse depiction: Laureate and draped bust facing right
    Inscription: CAROLVS II DEI GRATIA
    (Charles the second by the Grace of God)

    Reverse depiction: Three centered interlocking C's crowned
    Inscription: MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX 1677
    (King of Great Britain, France and Ireland)

    Notes:
    1. This is a well struck coin in excellent condition and with very good silver toning.

    If you recall, this started out to be a page devoted to coinage of the House of Stuart, but that turned out to be too ambitious for me and so I ended up writing this page.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  11. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    I forgot to include the following, sorry:

    Footnotes and further References

    • I lived in an area of Lancashire that had great historical association with the English Civil War. Just a couple of miles from my house was the great historical estate of The Towneley family that dates back to the 1300s. Here is an excellent Towneley History that includes the participation of the family as Royalists in the English Civil War
    • CAVALIERS AND ROUNDHEADS, The English Civil War, 1642-1649, Christopher Hibbert, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1993 - a very exhaustive and detailed account.
    • The following Wikipedia pages provide a wealth of general information relating to the history, causes, events and aftermath of the English Civil War:
      The English Civil War
      The Restoration
      The Wiilliamite War in Ireland
     
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  12. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I found a Gunmoney Half Crown From June 1690 in a tin of Mixed world coins that I bought on a whim some time back.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    They're nice coins - I got this September 1689 halfcrown in January:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
  14. Robidoux Pass

    Robidoux Pass Well-Known Member

    Jamesicus - Truly a great collection and a scholarly -- and interesting -- writeup.
     
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  15. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much @Robidoux Pass. It was kind of you to take the time to write that.
     
  16. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    They weren’t circulated in England as legal tender for they were never recognized as such by Parliament. Rather I think that many were taken to England later by Irish families who emigrated there as keepsakes or family heirlooms, etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  17. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    For those who might be bit confused here, James II became the King of England after his brother Charles II died without a legitimate heir to the crown. Charles II fathered lots of children; the trouble was all of them were with women other than his wife, the queen. She must have been infertile because they had no children.

    Unlike his brother, James II was ardent Catholic and also unlike his brother, he chose to push that religious issue upon England which had been a Protestant nation since the days of Henry VIII. Charles II had had the good sense to enjoy his office and not stir the pot. He had seen what had happened to his father who had literally lost his head. James II’s plan to reconcile with the Catholic Church didn’t go over well.

    When James had a son, the Whigs and Tories in Parliament became concerned. A son met that a Catholic would continue to be on the throne and push his agenda. The result was a bloodless coup, “The Glorious Revolution,” in which James II fled without a fight and William and Mary were invited to take the crown.

    In later years James with aid of the French, who always looking to stir up trouble in England, worked with dissident Scots and Irishmen to retake his crown. I believe that he became known as “the old pretender” and his son who continued the movement was called “the young pretender.”

    Here is a James II gold guinea.

    1686 guinea O.jpg 1686 guinea R.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
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  18. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Well Christian, that's interesting bits of text you picked out to show - here on CT. The text concerning "punishing the losers" mentions the “The effect” when referencing what was surely “An effect”. A slip of the pen? To be honest that seems to me…... troubling.

    Personally I prefer the sort of old style museums that focus upon a neutral showing of the objects. Letting the individual decide what they mean. Am curious about where this push towards all those modern museum notice board came from - in Britain and elsewhere. The Viennese philosopher Neurath pushed to convert museums into propaganda centers with notice boards - surely for his own political purposes - back in the 1930’s. Was the idea ultimately all imported from there?

    Rob T
     
  19. James O'Brien

    James O'Brien Active Member

    I agree.
    Gunmoney is a fascinating topic.

    Prices have gone up recently due to an excellent book
    written by Philip Timmins and published by
    The Numismatic Society of Ireland.

    Publications Secretary: rfitzp@gmail.com
    Gunmoney (Timmins).jpg
     
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  20. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Where can I get this book? It's not on Amazon.
     
  21. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

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