A recent internet listing for an 1804 "C-6" half cent was the motivation to pull this information together for presentation. I actually sent a note to the seller about the listed example (which he responded that it is genuine and came from a respected US auction house) as follows: Coming from "a famous American auction house" really doesn't mean much in my opinion in the current environment of high grade counterfeits; I have documented fakes sold in 3 of the major ones here with all being in top Third Party Grader's slabs as well. In each case all that protects the buyer is his own knowledge and the auctions houses'/ TPG's guarantee, like yours. The 1804 C-6 is a commonly used platform for current counterfeits and always warrants a second look. In the case of yours I'll start with the obverse- I have included an image of yours to a known genuine example (attached). This die pairing ALWAYS has the spiked chin feature, but yours is diminished or tooled as you can see. Also the "finger prints" seen on all are also diminished on yours (image courtesy PCGS as well). On the reverse the die breaks of the early state only partially show on yours, from the fraction to "U"- most are tooled away, either in the die to strike this or the coin itself which should include a break through the tops of "MERIC" and at the top of "OF". From the images it doesn't appear the coin is doctored though. And yours appears to have a break over HALF which isn't seen in any die state of this variety. I am curious what the edge looks like- maybe you could post an image? I received no further responses and the internet selling venue removed the listing... Obverse to a known genuine example courtesy PCGS Reverse to a known genuine example courtesy PCGS Image of attribution marks of this die pairing courtesy PCGS Going to my saved files I reviewed several other examples that actually have been submitted to Third Party Graders (TPG's) previously! The following one was submitted and not authenticated: Same "die state" struck counterfeit courtesy NGC And the following submitted to another top TPG and also returned "body bagged": And for the "all in the family" part of the story, the following were also submitted and returned: And another! We have seen every date from 1800 to 1808 with this same reverse- not really what is meant by "collect the whole series"! And as always one of the best ways to protect yourself from this type of fake for sale is to learn the series yourself. Buy the reference books, join a discussion group or club focused on your interests and ask other experienced members and friends. And review similar items on the internet- major auction house's sales archives and NGC's and PCGS's variety pages on line resources. There is nothing more deflating to anyone in the Hobby but especially new folks getting started than making this type of mistake purchase. Best, Jack D. Young EAC 5050
Hey jack! love the info, my name is jim and i see you know alot about coins, just had a question last night i found in my penny bucket a strange 1968 penny no mint mark that did not look right to me. I then put it on the scale and it weighs 2.67 grams. could this a new find
Hello, and welcome to C.T. you should start a thread uploading clear cropped pics of both obverse, and reverse.
We are lucky to have you keeping us on the leading edge of these crumbs. I am well schooled on a lot of series. Early copper has not been in my wheelhouse as I couldn’t afford them before. Now that I am dipping my toes into the early copper pool, I read each of your posts with great interest. Man, there are so many variables with early copper.
Very informative post, and a bit terrifying actually. The ones in fake, or real slabs (that passed grading) could easily fool all but the few well trained eyes. Even the TPGS's don't catch them all.
Agreed you should start a thread with your coin. Jack is quite the expert with early coins and forgeries. I wouldn’t trouble him with modern coins. Post a photo of your cent in the coin chat section. I promise you will have plenty of replies.
Agreed! Imagine every grader at every TPG having expertise in every issue - can't happen. We probably will not have supreme confidence in TPG's until they integrate computer/AI into the process (think "baseball strike zone"). Running a coin through AI before a visual by the grader should really help, & eliminate virtually all authentication issues. JMO
My encounters with this family. I own all 1800-1808 coins from this family with exception of the 1807. Some are better than others, but all will have a soft, grainy texture.
It is interesting to note that the position of 1 as well as the last digit is changed with each counterfeit in this family. It probably indicates that all digits are reworked prior to the making of the counterfeit obverse dies since changing the 1 would require changing the 8 and 0 to keep the spacing from announcing it as a counterfeit.
Interesting point Marshall- I believe there are a couple of levels of these counterfeits using the same style reverse dies. If you look at the 5 I posted there are 2 different obverses used, the non-1804 examples have less hair detail and position of LIBERTY and the date appears different than the 1804's.
They used an 1804 spiked chin obverse to make a hub. They then removed the date from that hub to make dateless obv dies and punched the different dates into the dateless dies. (if you look at Typecoins 1802 and 1803 you can still see the remnants of the spiked chin at the chin and lips. The 1803 also shows traces of the damaged from the bolt thread over by the rim.) They do come from more than one obv hub though as Typecoins 1808 and the 1807 that Jack posted are from a different obv hub (I don't know what date/variety was used to make that hub) You can see that on the spiked chin hub the highest wave of the hair is under the upright of the R in LIBERTY. On the non-spike chin hub it is below the center of the R. There may be other hubs as well.
It also helps to see genuine examples of the coins. Learning those is your best defense because the counterfeiters are adding more "junk" to the market all the time. I sold my half cent die variety collection many years ago, but I still have a few coins left. Here is an 1807 half cent in the early die state. There is only variety for this year.
This is a generalization. And I am fully aware that generalizations do not fit every scenario. My experience with Chinese counterfeits is that they typically have “soft”, almost cartoonish devices. Would these examples not indicate a more sophisticated level of counterfeiting operation?
These continue to get more and more sophisticated- really concerned about the ones we haven't discovered... I am working on an update to my research on the struck fake 1806 "C-1" half cents. Of the 11 documented (with the earliest from 2008) the 7 that have passed through my hands have 4 in top TPG holders. I had professional images made of these and they are beyond scary one on one. A couple:
I got my 1807 from a LCS and the date looks correct. Would counterfeiters make such a worn copy or do they tend to shoot for a specific condition range?
My lowest grade struck counterfeit is a VG 1787 Massachusetts half cent; the examples of other denominations and varieties have ranged from VG to AU, but many are in the VF-XF range.
Yes, that's how they try to hook you these days. You might let your guard down because the piece is circulated or has a problem. As long as the crooks can sell it for a profit, they don't have get every nickel by trying to palm off an Unc.