TPG Graded Notes with Pinholes

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by KSorbo, Apr 25, 2014.

  1. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I have a question regarding pinholes on large size notes and how they affect grading and market acceptability. I am specifically referring to PCGS and PMG graded notes in the VF-XF range that do not have a PPQ/EPQ designation. Is it considered acceptable for these notes to have pinholes even if they are graded problem free with no comments on the holders? When buying online it is not always possible to determine whether a note has pinholes, so when I get a note that turns out to have them, I am concerned that the market may value this as a "problem" note even in a clean holder.

    If my understanding is correct, a note designated as EPQ or PPQ should have no pinholes, while one without that designation may have pinholes or be reconditioned in some way. So does the price of a non-PQ note already take into account that it may have pinholes or other issues?
     
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  3. MEC2

    MEC2 Enormous Member

    This answer sucks, but it is accurate: it depends.

    To me pinholes should be noted (even if it does not affect the grade) on all notes graded above F12. But then what do I know...
     
  4. Searcher64

    Searcher64 Member

    On pin holes on very old notes. See "Paper Money of The United States"by Arthur L. Friedberg and Ira S. Friedberg on page 9 on section 12. Grading and Condition of Large size notes. States: Sometimes uncirculated large size notes will have pin holes in them, because it was customary in the old days to spindle or pin new notes together, and that is why so many old large uncirculated notes have pin holes. Such imperfections do not generally impair the choice appearance on a new note and are to be regarded as being in uncirculated condition, but will carry a lower price than one without pin holes.
     
  5. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    If an uncirculated note has pinholes doesn't that knock it down to the lower uncirculated grades? I understand that even an uncirculated note can have pin holes and still be considered uncirculated, but I'm most interested in how pinholes affect VF notes because those are the ones that I am realistically able to afford.

    It never ceases to amaze me how wide of a range of eye appeal there is within that grade. Some VF notes look downright horrendous due to creases and soiling and still grade problem free, while others have the exact same grade on the holder and look clean. At least for me, pinholes are less of a worry because they aren't readily visible without being held up to a light, while the other problems I mentioned can be very distracting. However, it seems that pinholes get mentioned a lot so I am wondering if others see this issue differently. Maybe the concern is with pinholes on higher grade notes and it doesn't make as much of a difference for the VF grades?
     
  6. Searcher64

    Searcher64 Member

    Many of the fractional currency have pin holes, because they were so small. That when cut from the main sheet. The cutter, would pin them to a board, or many that had them, would pin them to their inside of their coat, so as not to loose them, since they were so small, and of paper.
     
  7. funkee

    funkee Tender, Legal

    Interesting thread. You got my interest peaked. I have a 1918 $1 FRN that is otherwise gem, yet it has two pinholes in the top corners. I assumed some kid just pinned it to a wall.

    No, I don't think non-PQ notes are priced with pinholes considered. Pinholes should be noted accurately by the two services. But in reality, it depends on the grade and severity, and whether that deems a Net/Apparent grade.

    Obviously, as you get down to grades 8 and below, pinholes may not earn a comment at all.

    According to PCGS, a pinhole may be present and still qualify for a 64!

    Check out this excerpt from the PCGS site:

    Very Choice New 64
    “64” is an intermediate grade reserved for notes that are better than Choice New but that don’t quite reach the Gem grade. Such notes may have minor faults such as a couple of unobtrusive counting marks, ink or handling smudges, a single pinhole, or a rounded corner tip. The centering or margins will be better than average but may fall just short of that required for the Gem grade. It will still be an above average note, should have good eye appeal, and should not have any major blemishes or faults that are readily evident. A note at this grade level that receives the “PPQ” designation will likely have margins or centering that are slightly narrow or off center, but will possess complete originality.

    Choice New 63
    A Choice note will be strictly New, with no folds or bends that indicate circulation. The paper quality and eye appeal will be slightly above average for the issue, and any flaws present will be minor in nature. Imperfect centering is acceptable at this grade level, although any note with severe centering problems (with the design of the note touching the edge at one or more margins) cannot attain this grade. Counting crinkles or handling marks are acceptable, as is a frayed corner or two. One or two pinholes may be present. No folds or bends may reach into the design of the paper, although a light corner bend that does not extend into the design may be present. A note that otherwise appears Gem New but has flat paper surfaces may merit this grade. Complete originality is again required for the “PPQ” designation, although at this grade level some other problem such as poor centering or minor handling will be present.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  8. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    So if I'm reading this right an uncirculated note could have a couple pinholes and still end up in a comment free 63 holder. Wow. If so many of the large size notes were pinned together when new, then there must not be many left that are totally free of pinholes.

    Here's a closeup of two pinholes on a note graded VF35 by PMG, also a Green Eagle. It's a straight grade with no comments but not EPQ either. It's been pressed but overall looks decent and the pinholes in the picture are the only ones. Are these pinholes consistent with that grade? I suppose if a 63 can have two pinholes then a VF35 can too. I'm just not sure if the ones on this note are considered large or small.
    I don't want to get burned by buying certified notes only to find out that they aren't worth as much because of pinholes or other problems that weren't visible when I bought them. My understanding of the market is that once a note gets put in a problem free holder then people have confidence in the grade, but perhaps I am wrong?

    upload_2014-4-25_22-55-3.jpeg
     
  9. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Depends where the pin holes are, those with EPQ or POQ should have no pin holes Period! All of my civil war EPQ and PPQ have no pin holes or any other defect! Some of mines do have defects on the edges because they were hand cut or hand torn.
     
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  10. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Pin holes are often seen like in Civil War CSA notes, usually don’t detract value in them.
     
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  11. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Grading not an exact science and controversial, varies from individual to individual. I disagree with most things graded, only the best should be given these grades, but people complain that they are too strict, so they lower their grading standards.
     
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  12. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    It just depends. It depends on the note itself. It depends upon the size of the hole, the location of the hole. Is the hole stained from the pin? How rare is the note? And many other factors.
     
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  13. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Yes but mint is mint any thing less is not, been a collector for 42 years. PPQ or EPQ should be reserved for the best condition notes, not because of its rarity. Collectors started complaining and grading companies lowered their grading standards.
     
  14. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I personally do not collect problem laden notes especially ones with pin holes.
    Staple holes or writing on them, these maybe on the cheap, however there
    Is a good Reason for that as there for the most part not wanted by collectors
    So something that is worth maybe $500 with out, w/holes graffiti etc can cut that
    Price in half, so from an investment point of view that wouldnt be a good one.
     
  15. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    60,61,62,63 graded notes are the kiss of death for collectors !
     
  16. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Am extremely picky as well, only exception would make. Very rare not
    Will only buy if I can examine the notes, regardless of grade.
     
  17. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I collect and invest in Military Payment Certificates ( MPC ) and i can tell
    You first hand that 60 - 63 dont measure up, i dont particular care for
    65,s either, just because that grade tells me that to not has centering
    Issues, i will tell you this 67 thru 70 are very desirable the 66 i can
    Take it or leave it like the 64, i am a big fan of AU 53 - 58 PPQ super
    Good eye appeal, heres a great comparison between a 62EPQ
    and 53EPQ which would you rather own, base on over all appearance ?
    For me at least the 53 is just easier on the eyes and looks better
    Over all.



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  18. James Shields

    James Shields Active Member

    HaHa
     
  19. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Nice notes, agree there’s to much inconsistency with 60-63 grades regardless who’s grading them. Personally only by in person, not only line, so I can sort out the garbage.
     
  20. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I collect notes as well as coins and I have my fair share of US notes but I prefer to collect CSA notes over everything else. Here are 2 examples, a matched pair.

    The top bill is from plate 5 and the bottom bill is from plate 6. The serial numbers on both bills are the same which is normal but on the bottom bill the serial number on the right is an error as the last digit was left off.

    You can also see the Treasurers signature drops from the top bill onto the bottom bill. A long sweeping line. The condition is great, minor folds and no stains or pin holes which are common in CSA notes.
    IMG_2890.JPG IMG_2893.JPG
     
  21. Leog68

    Leog68 New Member

    Nice, yes pin holes, stains, folds etc are common in CSA notes. Been collecting since 1978, although I like Civil War era currency, do collect anything up until 1950.
     
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