Another silly LordM poll: King John pennies!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Feb 1, 2018.

?

Which is more appealing to you, based on not just looks but provenance?

  1. Coin A

    76.4%
  2. Coin B

    5.5%
  3. Like 'em both about equally

    10.9%
  4. Don't like either one

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Was medieval bacon as tasty as modern bacon?

    5.5%
  6. I thought Prince John was a lion and the Sheriff of Nottingham a badger, and Sir Hiss a snake?

    1.8%
  1. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    One's a newp and one's a bygone. Both ex-CNG. Both with pedigrees from 1970. Both VF (per CNG) and toned. The first is much more sharply struck, but the second comes with some interesting provenance to a hoard found in France.

    The first (Coin A) cost around $300. The second (Coin B) cost only $148 after fees. Bearing that in mind, decide which you find more appealing.

    Coin A



    933879.jpg


    Coin B

    Interesting PDF about the hoard here.

    4130722.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  3. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    I am assuming Coin A is the first coin pictured. He looks like he is wearing hair rollers.
     
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  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

  5. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Yes. Was still editing. Sorry. Labeled now.

    Indeed, he does look like he is wearing hair rollers there! Is a wee bit bugeyed, too- at least in one eye. Looks rather zombie-ish there. Medieval portraiture can be rather amusing, considering the punches they used to make the dies. That one actually has a really nice portrait for the time, though. That is no doubt why it cost twice as much as the second one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    For those of you old enough, he looks like he is wearing "spoolies"
    th.jpg
     
  7. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    I like A because the portrait is more defined.
     
  8. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Knowing nothing about these, Coin A blows Coin B out of the water.
     
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  9. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    Great coins @lordmarcovan while coin A has more eye appeal, coin B has a nice provenance. I just picked up a Henry II from the Gisors hoard in the latest CNG eAuction. Here is my most recent John penny.
    downloadfile-1.jpg
    John I AR Short Cross Penny 1205 AD Canterbury mint; Arnaud moneyer; struck in the name of Henry II.
    18mm 1.51g
    Obv: Crowned head facing; scepter to left; HENRICVSR EX
    Rev: Voided short cross; quatrefoil in each angle; +ARNAVD*ON*CANT
    SCBC 1351; North 970
     
  10. Aethelred

    Aethelred The Old Dead King

    I voted, but I have a slight conflict of interest.
     
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  11. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    The whole world will sing of an English king...
    IMG_9525.GIF

    I like coin A @lordmarcovan. I think the quality is worth the additional premium. Plus with coins that you think might have additional provenance there is a better chance of finding it if the coin is higher grade. Unfortunate but true.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  12. chuck123

    chuck123 Active Member

    I also vote voted for 4 coin A because I thought it was a better coin
    I also like your new acquisition
     
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  13. Aunduril

    Aunduril Well-Known Member

    Coin A for me.
     
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  14. alde

    alde Always Learning

    I voted for both but then I'm a sucker for Plantaganate pennies. Coin A has better style (which doesn't mean much with these coins IMHO) but the provenance of coin B makes it more interesting historically.
     
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  15. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    You've got a tough one.

    Great portrait on A. Without taking cost into account, there is no question, this is the right coin.

    But B is nice, the legends and portrait aren't bad and it is a lot cheaper.

    I think it depends on whether YOU have a good use for the $150 price differential.

    Great looking Coin A
    vs
    Decent looking Coin B + cool provenance + another cool $150 coin.

    Tough decision. If I have to choose, I'll pick A. You may want to check to see if there is any information on the Moneyers. Maybe Wilhelm T or Walter have an interesting story that would help sway the decision
     
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  16. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    I am a bit out of norm on this one. I think a coin from a known hoard is worth a few extra style points when picking between two coins. Is B pictures in the hoard data, or put another way do you know it is really from the hoard?
     
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  17. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    If CNG says it's from the hoard, that's good enough for me. I don't know what kind of documentation will come with it, beyond the invoice.
     
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  18. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    I considered bidding on that coin... but like coin A better.

    Interesting aside, as I was working on my doctorate, I was looking at payments to provision castles in the English pipe rolls. Bacons received specific mention a couple times, and it seemed to i ply that these may have been small pigs, rather than just a cut from a pig or form of curing.

    And hereks my John:
    Med-09a-Eng-1205-John-D-5c-London-Walter-1353.jpg
    England
    John, r. 1199-1216 (1205-1216)
    London Mint, AR Short Cross Penny, 18.12mm x 1.54 grams
    Obv.: hENRICVS RE[X]. Bust facing crowned with sceptre, curls enclose pellets
    Rev.: + WALTER . ON . LV. Short cross voided with quatrefoil in each angle
    Ref.: North 971, SCBC 1353, CC99 JH1D-020, De Wit 3196
    Ex. Dr. Murray Gell-Mann Collection
     
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  19. PlanoSteve

    PlanoSteve Well-Known Member

    I prefer coin A. Interesting info about the hoard, but not enough there to influence my preference. Still a fan of bacon! Funny...the cartoonish John on these. :smug:
     
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  20. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    As I sort of expected, Coin A crushed Coin B in the poll, though by a wider margin than I anticipated, given the hoard provenance of Coin B and the ~2x ($150-ish) price differential.

    I just paid CNG for Coin B yesterday afternoon. It sold for $120 ($148 to me, after buyer's fee and shipping). It was Lot 722 in their recent eAuction #413, from which @TheRed also got a penny from the same Gisors Hoard. I do like the faintly colored toning from this hoard. I suppose these were all cleaned/conserved circa 1970, when found, and have retoned attractively in the subsequent 48 years.

    So as far as the acquisition goes, I'm on the wrong end of this poll... sort of.

    You see, Coin A used to be a part of my "Eclectic Box" collection, but is, alas, no longer.

    It's gone, and I might not be getting it back - like my Aethelred II penny. *sigh*

    I sold Coin A back when my Eclectic Box was still the "Eclectic Box of 20", and I was keeping a fixed limit of 20 coins. I abandoned that restriction in mid-2017 and it now contains 31 pieces at last count... and growing. This new coin (Coin B above) will make 32. I'm due for a new Eclectic Box update soon!

    I let a lot of nice stuff go during the "Box of 20" phase. There is some seller's remorse with that, but then again, the four years I stuck to a 20-coin limit made my collection nicer, I think, and taught me how to be a little bit more detached and selective. Good lessons learned.

    So now I have another King John penny- and a nice one, too, I think- though it's not the equal of the one I let go, which now lives with @Aethelred, my oldest numismatic friend, who has pillaged acquired many of my nicer coins in our past dealings. (We've "shared custody" of many coins over the last 20 years.) He generally holds on more tightly to his collection, whereas mine tended to be a bit more of a "revolving door" during my "Box of 20" era.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  21. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Coin A any day even though the king is just "one eyed"

    Q
     
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