Don't be tempted by this one . . .

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ToughCOINS, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. John77

    John77 Well-Known Member

    I have a couple of 1974-D halves made in Shanghai... they sound like a heavy pencil when you drop them! :dead:
     
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  3. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    As they say down here in NC, "I might be suckin' pond water on this one", but I am going to go out on a limb and say this coin is genuine. Most likely cleaned.

    They do not show the obverse, but this is definitely an 1888S. The Briggs book on
    LSQs indicates that 1888S Obverse 5 has 'BER' polished away on the die, and the left end of the '1' in the date is centered over the left of the dentil. Just as here.

    The date digits are spot on for the S issue. Last '8' does not lean in as in the P strike.

    Although Liberty's head looks flatter and wider than the PCGS CoinFacts 1888S MS66 photo, this is an illusion from wear. The metrics on several skull measurement ratios actually match up exactly to the known genuine coin.

    Of the seller's 151 items this is the only coin. Everything else is badges, medals, emblems, vintage railway mags and vintage model trucks. Doesn't prove squat, but raises the possibility that they came by this and are just passing it on.

    Either they know what they have and are trying to pass it off as the rarer Philly strike, or don't even know enough about coins to turn it over or where the mint mark is.

    As for the returns policy, it is terribly worded, but doesn't eBay provide sufficient refund protection if it were to prove fake? The seller has 23,000+ sales with a 100% feedback rating.

    Still, I've got the oars standing by...
     
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  4. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Meant 23,000+ transactions, not all sales.
     
    Collecting Nut likes this.
  5. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    I give up. [​IMG]
     
    PlanoSteve and Dynoking like this.
  6. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Noooooooo!!! R.I.P. VKB emoji!!
     
    TypeCoin971793 likes this.
  7. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Look, it's not even up for debate - the coin is a fake, period! Have you ever BEEN on the Chinese sales sites? There are tons of pieces just like this, they might even be lifted photos.
     
    asheland and Dynoking like this.
  8. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Ok let's not debate. Any idea how they might have done it?
     
  9. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Which proves one thing - there are lots of crooks and idiots on eBay.
     
  10. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Seriously? Are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't been reading about the absolute FLOOD of fake Chinese coins now washing over the market? It's NOT a secret. It's been in absolutely ALL the trade publications. These are Chinese government permitted and even OWNED entities pumping these nearly indistinguishable fakes out by literally the MILLIONS! Also, this eBay seller shows literally ZERO evidence of being coin aware. It's not even his wheelhouse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  11. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Yes and I am extremely concerned about it. Want to be on detection like white on rice.
    Which is why I stayed up late tapping on this phone screen like a maniac, going back and forth between eBay and PCGS.
    At first glance I completely saw the fake - looks like Liberty and the rock float weirdly over the background field. And the head and face looked wrong.
    But I was not able to find any divergence in the metrics using a ruler with 1/32s. So I concluded that it was real but cleaned.
     
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  12. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

  13. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Ok thank you for the horrifying link. Gotta hate all of it.
    I knew they were getting a lot better. The recent CT thread on the 1920-S Walker illustrated their 'progress' since 2011.
    Still wondering what you see as the clear indicators.
     
  14. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

  15. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Yes I see the 1888 - has the cockeyed third 8.
    It is amazing that in the 1888S under discussion the miscreants would have known to polish out the 'BER'.
    So in terms of detection the experienced eye first sees the smooth fields as suspect?
     
  16. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Yes and ... notice that the detail on the aliexpress link I posted is BETTER than on the eBay coin.

    And people wonder why I'm so negative about the Internet! I'm sentient, that's why!
     
  17. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Right.
    Your link about the sweat shops says they process them further after striking. To get the ~EF40 state of the eBay example they would have to do some very high tech whizzing to not leave traces. Or maybe you are saying there are traces.
    To the amateur investigator or potential purchaser comparing high grade PCGS-certified examples of the same date/mm (if not die variety), there are of course very smooth fields in all the genuine stock. So more is needed.
    Thanks for providing the relevant side links here. If you get a chance would appreciate any more thoughts about what you look at first as soon as you sniff a rat.
     
  18. harley bissell

    harley bissell Well-Known Member

    Seller specializes in militaria and toys. May not know what he's selling. Definitely does not know how to display. Maybe hiding a giant carbon spot on the reverse. Listing only one coin. I've bought many coins from antique dealers who know nothing about what they have and merely use a ten times pricing schedule. They buy for a quarter they want $2.50. As long as coin is in hand I accept the occasional bad buy. Don't know. Don't much care about this coin. OP did folks a favor by highlighting his doubts.
     
  19. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    Love the luster. I need to bid on it with my fake money:)
     
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  20. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    Nor am I interested in owning anything that is not quality and original. But they say every serious collector should own counterfeits as a means toward awareness. I would consider buying this if inexpensive in order to serve as an in-hand example of a series I collect.
    I messaged the seller and requested that they post a photo of the reverse.
     
  21. ronnie58

    ronnie58 Active Member

    If you would please explain why this superior detail is evidence. The aliexpress junk certainly looks clunky and dull.
    But a cleaned genuine EF40 Details would have similar wear as the posted coin.
    For example in the hair definition - yes 'better' (sic) on the known fake and on the ridiculous flood of the rest on that page.
    So it must be more the apparently stunning lustre that's the tip-off? A real EF40 would not have such proof like fields as does the eBay example.
    I am being exhaustive :yawn: and maybe exhausting because this needs to be more clear to everybody imho.
     
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