The slabbed ancient coin perception—misconception?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Deacon Ray, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES!

    I've only been asked that question one time in person, I was just tickled pink that anyone gave enough of a @#$ to ask in the first place.

    It doesn't bother me to get the about knowing if they are real or if you can have them outside a museum, I had the same question myself seven years ago. The answer was what hooked me right away! "Holy crap! For less money than I can buy some US coins I can own some actual ancient coins! I'm in! Let's do this!"
     
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  3. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Demonstrating authenticity to someone who doesn't know where to look for the truth of the matter certainly is a vexing and dismaying problem. But it is not the worst challenge to the collector of ancients. Try to imagine being a dedicated collector in an environment in which admitting it could cost you your career. For all its brilliant minds, academe can be like that.
     
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  4. Macromius

    Macromius Well-Known Member

    Whenever I've been asked by someone, "How do you know they're real?" I tell them I am reasonably certain most of my coins are authentic, but a few of them probably aren't. To me it's part of the risk being an ancient coin fanatic so why lie about it? (Perhaps if I was more of an expert I would have more confidence.) If my entire collection was slabbed by the 3 big companies I'd probably say the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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  5. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar

    Oh well, not everyone can get the bug. It’s better that they don’t anyway because prices will get too high for me. ;)

    There’s enough volume out there that museums can be very selective of what they want to show and leave the rest to the collectors. I was at the MET a few months ago staring at all their ancient coins, which appeared mostly on loan from collectors anyway. I seemed to be the only one really interested though. Coins probably don’t have the wow factor for most museum visitors like other large pieces such as sculptures, ancient armor and weapons.

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  6. Johndakerftw

    Johndakerftw Mr. Rogers is My Hero

    I get told I'm an idiot. :confused:

    Erin
     
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  7. Voulgaroktonou

    Voulgaroktonou Well-Known Member

    I can well imagine that conversation. Because I work in a university department that has close and prominent ties to the international archaeological community, I never discuss my interests at the office.
     
  8. Whizb4ng

    Whizb4ng HIC SVNT DRACONES


    For Late Romans I always walk them through the basic math. I start with during the period of Constantine there were ~15 mints running (I use 15 just because the math is a bit easier) and each mint had ~5 officina (again I am not THAT good at math so I make it easy on myself). Say each officina is 1 dude and that dude makes 100 coins a day. That is 500 coins per day per mint and 7500 across the empire. Times that by 365 and that is a lot of coins.

    This usually gets the point across that the Empire was producing an incredible amount of coins and that they may be more common than they had thought previously.
     
  9. LaCointessa

    LaCointessa Well-Known Member

    @erin, that is just plain unkind.o_O I am sorry for those mean words you absorbed.:(
     
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  10. hoth2

    hoth2 Well-Known Member


    That's a great response. I just need to develop a little more patience--I want to get straight to the isn't-this-cool part!
     
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  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The hardest point to get across is that these coins are not what we today think of as coins but served the purposes today handled by paper money, credit cards and electronic banking combined. I once had a Latin teacher ask what price they should use on their Latin Club newspaper. We settled on a quadrans. There was no ancient coin equivalent of a nickel or dime. If a 2nd century denarius was a day's pay for ordinary labor, an as would be about a half hour or maybe a $5 Lincoln not the one cent version.

    When inflation hit and coins lost much of their purchasing power, the mints were faced with an impossible task of keeping up with demand. Since every year saw a need for recoining with even lesser standards, the number of coins needed was ridiculous. If none had been melted down or rotted away, Europe today would have been a mountain of metal. Exaggeration? Maybe but the reason things are rare now is because of poor survival not for the lack of mint output.
     
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  12. Keith Twitchell

    Keith Twitchell Active Member

    One thing I do when someone questions whether or not my ancient coins are real is freely acknowledge that there are many counterfeits and show them one or two that I (most unfortunately) have picked up along the way. Then I show them the things identify them as counterfeits and show them how the real coins don't show things like signs of casting, etc. Other than the total skeptics, who I don't care about anyway, this usual satisfies the question and often leads to some great conversation.
     
  13. Deacon Ray

    Deacon Ray Artist & Historian Supporter

    Erin, if you’re an idiot then I’m one too. The world is full of people who get high by insulting others. People who appreciate history are rare. People who actually want to connect with ancient history and hold a piece of it in their hand are even more rare. You are unique beyond words and I'm Blessed to have you as a CTAF friend.
     
  14. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Production was definitely much higher than that. If you are only making 7,500 coins a day in the year 370 CE, and you are the Eastern Emperor, no way could you afford to pay the standing army of 104,000, plus around 200,000 border guards (limitanei), and a few thousand sailors, plus over 3000 imperial guards. All these soldiers would require at least one coin each per day. Not to mention other Imperial expenses that would have required coinage. You would need at least 350,000 coins a day on hand to keep up with army pay. Maybe taxes will cover some of that, plus soldiers will spend most of the money and put it back into the economy, but you'd need backup supply in case of shortfalls...especially when soldiers are on campaign and not spending as much money in the local economy. And you better have backup coinage for those situations, as soldiers don't like to go without pay for any period of time.

    Plus an economy with 7 million citizens also required a certain amount of coins in daily circulation (at least 100,000,000 coins would ensure the average citizen had at least 10 coins in his pocket or at home, and it would leave ample coinage for the small upper classes to amass great wealth.)

    Yes, coins last a long time once struck and recirculate all over the economy, but coins get lost or worn, and a certain amount of the millions of coins already in circulation are constantly needing to be replaced. Plus certain amount of new coinage must enter circulation on top of that to keep up with economic demand as well as new state projects. I have a feeling you'd need at least 5,000,000 new coins a year just for the Eastern Empire alone. That's a little over double your 7,500 coins a day estimate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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  15. Whizb4ng

    Whizb4ng HIC SVNT DRACONES

    Yep, I am well aware that they produce more coins that 7500. I was providing a basic example of getting across the scope of production in the empire. Many can make the intuitive leap that I am using lowball numbers just for easy of math.

    This is simply an easy way to get the point across that even at the absolute minimum of production (1 dude and 100 coins a day) the empire was producing an incredible amount of coins.
     
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  16. GerardV

    GerardV Well-Known Member

    I have a friend who is convinced all of the ancient coins in my collections are fake. She won't tell me to my face, but tells other friends that I'm a sucker. The way I see it, most people project their morals onto others. So, people assuming they're all fake do so because they can see themselves passing fake coins.


    Before I go any further, I want to make it 100% clear that I AM NOT questioning Decon Ray's family history...and yes, usually when someone makes a statement like that it's because what's coming next will appear to do just that. But, that isn't my inte

    I find it interesting that people question coins, but not military awards when stolen valor is a HUGE problem in America today. Some studies claim that up to 95% of family heirloom medal weren't actually won by the family member in question. A lady I worked with told stories of her grandfather's Distinguished Service Cross from WWII and countless other heroic military actions/awards. The problem popped up when someone checked the online database and pointed out her Grandfather wasn't listed as having won ANY citation for valor. When confronted, he fell back on the "my records are classified" BS story.

    Google "phony Navy Seal of the week" to see a bunch of phonies outed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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  17. Johndakerftw

    Johndakerftw Mr. Rogers is My Hero

    Thanks Lacointessa and Deacon Ray, I really appreciate your words.

    People already know I'm not the brightest lightbulb in the batch, we can't all be. But, it's hard when people don't recognize the time and research that you put into your collection. It's quite frustrating.

    My brother just doesn't talk about them period.

    I just want to see people as blown away as I am by these awesome pieces of history. That's why I'm so grateful that I can come here.

    Keep up the great work all!

    Erin
     
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  18. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Got it. I will say that even my estimate feels like a little bit of a low figure. Just look at the hoards of hundreds or thousands of coins that seem to be found every other year, plus the hundreds of smaller finds that metal detectors turn up every single year. Considering that only a tiny fraction of ancient coins survived, the production figures had to be immense. I think if modern historians ever discovered a text containing the actual figures of coins the empire produced for one entire year, they would be blown away.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  19. Deacon Ray

    Deacon Ray Artist & Historian Supporter

    You’re right on, Gerard! Stolen valor is a big problem. I've encountered more Navy Seals and Army Rangers than I can count. Nope, my grandfather was just a regular First Class Private Doughboy—but a hero to me in every sense of the word. His medals consisted of a Victory Medal with 5 bars and a Verdun Sector medal issued after the war.

    More added:
    Sorry to hear about your encounter with the skeptics at your workplace, @GerardV . Sometimes all you can do is walk away. Trying to convince a non-believer can be futile. Try putting a pebble on the table and telling them that it’s only 4 billion years old. You'll probably render them speechless and they'll give you that deer in the headlights look.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  20. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    @GerardV I am familiar with the work Navy Seal Don Shipley does. In fact, I once reported a regular at a cigar shop I hang out at to him as I was sure the guy was a fake seal. After all, no real seal would have a cheesy trident tattoo on his arm. Turns out the guy was confirmed a real seal...much to my surprise. What are the odds, considering most of the so-called seals are fake. I had to humble myself and apologize, and treat the guy to a cigar and a beer, but given the number of fakes I think I was right to be suspicious.
     
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  21. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I show coins and pictures of my coins to people I work with and a few others. The question of authenticity doesn't come up very often. Most people ooh and ahh a little bit, but it is possible that they are just trying to be polite :D. When the authenticity question does arise, my answer is similar to @Macromius and @red_spork , throwing in some quantity information similar to the point made by @Whizb4ng.

    For someone totally new to the idea of ancient coins, I sometimes begin the spiel with a little preemptive statement-- something like, "When I first noticed ancient coins I couldn't believe that ordinary individuals such as myself could actually own one! Then, I found they they exist in the millions, with more found every day as metal detectors actively hunt for them and as incidental finds when a field is plowed. Museums are stuffed to the gills with ancient coins. Museums don't even display many coins..."
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
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