All opinions wanted

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by usmc60, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    It seems you made my point for me in your comment, when you say look closing you can see the reeded edge on the fold-over.
    All that tells me is that is reeded edge left over material and also tell me when you mentioned the word fin is created differently if you do your research you will see this.

    One thing I have found trying to research this is that in Numismatic coin definition, I have found that burr has no listing also have found fin or finned also has no listing.

    So I revert back to the good old dictionary and here's what I came up with
    burr1
    Also, buhr. a protruding, ragged edge raised on the surface of metal during drilling, shearing, punching, or engraving.

    Finning
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For the town in Germany, see Finning, Bavaria. For the removal of shark fins, see Shark finning.
    finning-1.jpg finning-2.jpg Nice fin of a redfish, seen this plenty of times in the backwaters of the Everglades


    But I'm sure this is not what you mean. I'm pretty sure this is what you mean and if you take a closer look no way are the two photos anywhere similar as far as a burr and a fin

    Van Buren Large Finned Rim - Westminster Mint
    www.coin-rare.com › Error CoinsThis rare piece is easily identified by the extra piece of metal around the edge. Finned Rim often mistakenly called a wire rim is caused when the planchet (coin blank) is too heavy for the normal die spacing or the dies are improperly spaced and coming too close together during the strike. This causes the excess metal to squeeze up between the dies. $999


    Hommer
    Rim burrs there are several varieties out there. It's also the same for finned or fin there are a variety of those two.

    Please do a little research and when you come across a photo that resembles mine and is considered a fin please post it. So far all the photos I looked at fins do not even come close.
    You know I could be nice and actually show you a nice photo of a fin or what is considered to be a fin rim coin. I'm going to wait and see what your research comes up with. (Show All of us photo) USMC60
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    To answer the original question: No, what you are referring to as rim burrs are tiny slivers of excess metal that get trapped up against the rim of a coin. Sometimes they flake off rather easily and sometimes they are quite well attached. Sometimes we even see the coin AFTER the excess sliver of metal has already flaked off and there is a void in the rim. It is not an error per se because there was no persistent difference. It IS bad quality control, I maintain. Or at least less than optimal maintenance.

    Have you ever been to a Mint and seen modern striking happening? You really do need to make time to see it! It will answer questions for you that you never even knew you had. And make it either Philly or Denver. Right now, SF doesn't do tours, and West Point is a highly secure location and you need to be a VIP. You will be utterly amazed how fast coins are struck. You won't believe it. "Gattling gun" is the way I describe it.
     
  4. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    My old error books use both terms.
     
  5. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Books, shmooks. It's all websites now, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::hilarious::smuggrin:

    There are literally three sites in my new place where I could produce a coin video podcast and the ENTIRE background would be shelf after shelf of numismatics books, auction catalogs, and/or albums. Okay, maybe some old Leicas there, too.
     
    green18 likes this.
  6. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    Kurt I had the honor of going through the Denver mint on my way to Seattle back in 89.
    A friend of mine and myself as we went into Denver he wanted to go to the Harley shop. So I went to the Denver mint for their tour.
    Their commercial production line was very impressive, the presses actually reminded me of machine-gun fire. All they needed to do was turn out the lights put some tracer coins in there and we'd have one light show.

    Now it is my understanding the planchette goes over the reeding die.
    Then it is struck by the hammer die pushing it down into the reeding collar,
    at this time any excess material is pushed to the top towards the die. Assuming everything lined up correctly.

    Sometimes this material could be either thick, or extremely thin.
    I have found due to the temperature of the coin, if this material pushed up is extremely thin it can actually fold over on its own since the metal is very pliable.
    Then you will create a rim burr strikethrough. As indicated by the photo.

    As I've said before, there are a variety of burrs. Just like they are a variety fins.

    No it seems I have to bring this up again. At least we have some good members on this talk forum, have the common courtesy not to make fun of someone that has a learning problem. Dyslexia. I cannot spell. I rely on voice recognition to communicate. And a comment always made well you have spellcheck. Think about that remark how spellcheck gonna help if someone does not know how to spell.

    Believe me I do my best and I tried to double check everything. One thing I will give CT credit for it's making me learn a lot more by having to do a lot of research. USMC60
     
  7. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    I shouldn't have to say anymore old books. All I can say about that is it seems that all terminology is not considered relevant in the new age of coin production.
    I have a few modern up-to-date books and they don't have it in them..
     
  8. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    If your posts are being done by voice recognition, I'm impressed. Unusually good.

    Okay. My understanding is that the planchet is dropped into the coining area, and SIMULATANEOUSLY the collar surrounds the planchet and the hammer die (the one that moves) strikes the coin against the anvil die (the fixed one). What becomes the rim is filled within the collar, but OUTSIDE the diameter of the hammer and anvil dies. The reeding (that is the correct spelling) comes from the collar, depending on the denomination. Obviously the collars used on non-reeded coins are smooth.
     
  9. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    Kurt this is where I've got my information.
    BY SUSAN HEADLEY

    How Do the Reeds Get on the Edge of the Coin?
    Those small grooves that that you find on the edge of a coin are usually added during the striking process.

    Coin dies produce the obverse and the reverse of the coin. In order to hold the coin securely during the striking process, a metal collar that is the exact diameter of the coin is placed in between the two coin dies. A planchet is placed on top of the anvil die and held securely by the collar.
    The collar has a series of small grooves already carved into it. When the planchet is struck at tremendous pressure, the coin tries to expand out the side but is held in place by the collar. The tiny grooves on the collar are now transferred to the edge of the coin.

    Another method used to impart reeding and other edge adornments is to strike the coin first and then put it through a milling machine which will add the reeds or other design to the edge of the coin. This is usually done by rolling and squeezing the coin in between two metal strips that have the grooves or other design engraved on them.

    And according to Mr. Moffat. All Planchet's get a light coating of oil so they do not get stuck in the collar. Which I was unaware of this fact until I talked to the man.


    Kurt I have to be honest with you I've actually learned some things about some of my coins. And have confirmed a couple of my theories.
     
  10. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    My understanding is that presently only the dollar coins get the milling machine treatment. I have some doubts about the oil, though. I've looked at the process closely and I frankly don't see where that could happen, particularly with cents, which arrive at the mint already ready to strike.
     
  11. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    The mint produces that coin for circulation, I don't know of any others that are in circulation that have rim lettering.
    Kurt all I can say is this gentleman he's actually on the site. My conversations with him I've learned of things about the mint presses and some of the other equipment.
    Not only is this gentleman a Master technician who can pull one of the presses apart and put it back together again. But my understanding to he also instructs on the operations of these presses.
    Trivial fact that I was unaware the Mint purchases at least 11 new presses a year.
    Kurt he's a good man to know. I'll try and find his information for you.
    Maybe if we get lucky he'll see my thread and chime in. If not I'll find the information for you.
     
  12. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    As I promised and I would check out my thread he gives a very interesting opinion. Page 5
    Sean Moffatt
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/no-grease.286545/
     
  13. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Wow. I read that whole thread, and while lubricants MUST OF COURSE be present to keep the striking machines humming, at NO POINT are planchets or coins themselves intentionally oiled. Yes, there is a cleaning step, well before the planchets arrive in the hoppers to be fed to the presses, and the content of that cleaning fluid is a closely guarded secret. And it is quite possible it has a lubricant quality to it. BUT to say planchets are "oiled" per se is a complete misunderstanding of both the process and the contents of the thread you linked.

    I also have some experience with production equipment, in the photo lab environment. I know of what the gentleman speaks, when he talks of "boogers" of debris and lubricants. It happens anywhere there are lubricants. They gum things up when tiny pieces of junk are around, whether metal or tiny flecks of photographic paper in a photo printer. Would you also say photo paper gets "oiled"? Don't fall for it!
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If nothing else now I know what a burr is. I've always said I have little to no interest in errors or varieties, never have had. But I thought I had at least read of most of the terms. Found out today there was one I hadn't.
     
  15. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    Kurt I don't know what to tell you, I'm only in foreign the new of information that was given to me in private chat. That is where I discussed the catalysts of the dried cleaning solution that is found on coins that come directly from the mint..

    We did not get into exactly where the lubricating mechanism was for the rim.
    But personally the experience I've had with a self lubricating mechanism.
    It is possible for that to be in the upsetting machine.

    Kurt I believe you and that gentleman would get along fine,Contact him and maybe he'll say exactly were the mechanism is. From what I can tell if anyone is to know how many times a planchet get stuck in a collar he would.

    If you decide to get a hold on through chat to say USMC60 said Howdy.
     
  16. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    If that were the case, then PCGS could "sniff" such residues with their chemical-sniffing technology, and they have NEVER mentioned it. Color me dubious of the entire discussion.
     
  17. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    GDJMSP I would like to say thank you. For taking the time to at least do whatever you dead to find out that they do exist.I can only hope GDJMSP That you give some threads a chance before you decide to delete them.Just like in this case you may find out what they're saying does exist or is true.

    It is only fair to the member.
     
  18. usmc60

    usmc60 SEMPER FI

    Kurt I've known you open rolls of cents directly from the meant. All those white residue marks is left over cleaning residue. This residue is heat dried into the blank.

    I find it shows up better on the cents, there is almost too much reflection on quarters dimes nickels but it's there.
    I think as far as the sniffer goes to identify the cleaning solution.
    I believe this would involve a little more of a test to determine the chemical composition of the solution. What do they call it on CSI a gas chromatograph. LOL
     
  19. Hommer

    Hommer Curator of Semi Precious Coinage

    Actually, the collar fits around the die and moves back and forth on the die. The collar is raised up around the planchet, then after the strike, it is pulled back to release the coin or in other words, the die pushes the coin out of the collar. The collar fits close around the die and would need to be lubricated so that it can move without friction, but it isn't so close that there isn't a gap between the two. When struck with excessive pressure, metal from the coin is forced in the small gap between the die and collar. If that metal remains on the coin, it resembles a thin fin around the rim. If it is a reeded coin, the collar is what gives it the reeds. Think of the collar as a form, or mold, that the coin was mashed into giving it its shape. If the collar is reeded then the fin will be reeded.
    https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/Swamperbob/200857_collarDieSketch.JPG

    http://www.nbbmuseum.be/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Foto-31.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
    Oldhoopster likes this.
  20. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I'll bet the threads are still there. The search function here works really well.
     
  21. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    What white residue marks? I’ve never seen it. Hint: you need to avoid sneezing on your coins..
     
    usmc60 and green18 like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page