Godless Money

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Marshall, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I haven't heard of any change to the requirement for IN GOD WE TRUST to appear on US Coins. But I keep hearing about Godless money being distributed.

    Does anyone know what is actually happening? Is it coins or bills? Or just rumor?
     
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  3. bigjpst

    bigjpst Well-Known Member

    They may be referring to the small dollars that had the IN GOD WE TRUST MISSING from the edge. Also when it was moved to the edge lots of people were not aware, and referred to them as godless. Only time I've heard the term.
     
  4. rev1774

    rev1774 Well-Known Member

    +1
    Tis the only reference I have heard of as well..
     
  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree. Simple marketing gimmick, if you can invent a catchy phrase you can add a few dollars to the price. :)
     
  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    As long as it's only Mint Errors, I don't understand the hype. I'd join the backlash if it were intentional.

    I was wondering if the Fed had changed the greenbacks (again) since as a quasi-private enterprise, they don't have to follow congressional mandates.
     
  7. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    They don't? I am pretty sure Congress has full authority to dictate what circulating legal tender has to look like if they wish. The quasi-private nature of the Fed only keeps Congress from passing acts interfering with their operation, but I think design of circulating currency is not included in that.

    Just my opinion.
     
  8. DoK U Mint

    DoK U Mint In Odd we Trust

    When did God need dollars?


     
  9. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The BEP who engraves the plates and prints the currency DOES have to follow Congressional mandates.

    Most of the talk about Godless coins is from ignorant people who didn't know that the motto was put on the edge and who are still repeating that nonsense even though it was moved back onto the obv in 2009. There has been some use of the term to hype the missing edge letter coins.
     
  10. phdunay

    phdunay Member

    The "godless" money refers to Presidential dollar coins where the phrase was not relocated, but missing, a few of the coins never got their edge lettering, making them not have the phrase "In God we Trust" and thus they were declared "godless"
     
  11. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The "They are taking In God We Trust off our coins" emails started back in 2006 after the Presidential dollar act was passed and the first proposed designs were shown. People didn't see the motto and the roumor began that the motto had been removed. (They never bothered to learn the truth but instead just started spreading the tale on the internet and by emails. A lot of the people, especially religious groups just continued passing it along to more and more people because they just assued what they were told was true and they never bothered to confirm it. I know back in late 2006 and early 2007 I was getting four or five emails a week forwarded to me angry because they were issuing "Godless" coins.
     
  12. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I never go that Conder, but I was in a service a few years ago where the preacher brought it up, so I am sure you are right and it made the religious circuit. BTW I never went back there, figuring if the preacher was so wrong on that issue, what bigger ones might he be screwing up.

    I never understood why we even have it still. I know the history of it, but today so many Americans believe in so many different religious ideas, I think its out of place. If they were making a commemorative of the founding of this nation it would be appropriate, but just not today. To me its akin to Sharia law where only 51% of the population is muslim. Its just not the place of the government to be commenting on anyone's religion. My wife is Buddhist, should our coinage make her feel unwelcome?

    Chris
     
  13. 2CentRick

    2CentRick Senior Moment

    President Teddy Roosevelt objected to the use of the phrase IGWT and ordered it not to be used on the new eagle and double eagle issued in 07/08. Dare I say - Bully!
     
  14. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Good one Dok...:) My answer would be every Sunday.

    I agree it is not needed today, but I have no real objection to it staying on coinage or bills.
     
  15. Lon Chaney

    Lon Chaney Well-Known Member

  16. Info Sponge

    Info Sponge Junior Member

    Where can I read details about the history of the motto? Wikipedia tells me it didn't even start appearing on US coins until 1864, with gradual adoption thereafter. But it doesn't explain the motivation for the change.
     
  17. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The motto came about because of the Civil War. Typically during times of war religious fervor tend to rise with increasing calls for prayer, requests for divine interventions and declarations along the lines of "God is on OUR side!". One of the results of this was this letter of Nov 13, 1861 from the Rev M R Watkinson of Ridleyville PA to Secretary Salmon P Chase.

    "One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

    You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were now shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words "perpetual union"; within this ring the all-seeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the states; in the folds of the bars the words God, liberty, law.

    This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. this would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my heart I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our national disasters.

    To you I first address a subject that must be agitated."

    This letter appealed to Sec Chase and he followed it with one of his own to the Director of the Mint, James Pollock on Nov 20, 1861.

    "Dear Sir,

    No nation can be strong except in the strenth of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be should be declared on our national coins.

    You will cause a device to be prepared without necessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words this national recognition."


    The Director was willing to prepare patterns showing possible mottos but it was pointed out that the inscriptions to appear on the coins were specified by law and that new legislation would be required for the inclusion of a new motto.

    Several possible mottos were proposed including "God, Liberty, Law", "Country Our God", and "God our Trust".

    Secretary Chase approved the mottos but suggested some changes in a letter dated Dec 9, 1863.

    "I approve your mottos, only suggesting on the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word 'Our' so as to read 'Our God and Our Country'. And on that with the shield it should be changed so as to read 'In God We Trust'."

    The act of April 22, 1864 changed the composition of the one cent piece, and created a new two cent piece and required the motto "In God We Trust" to appear on it.

    The following year the Act of March 3, 1865 provided that the Director of the Mint may place the new motto, with the approval of the Sec of the Treasury, on all of the gold and silver coins of the United states that shall admit the inscription thereon. This resulted in the motto being added to the quarter, half and dollar coins and the half eagle, eagle, and double eagle in 1866. It was not placed on the half dime, dime, or quarter eagle because it was felt that they were too small to accommodate it. Note that this did not require the motto, it allowed the director to add it at his discretion.

    When the coinage laws were re-codified Feb 12, 1873 it provided that the Secretary may cause the motto to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit such a motto. Once again the motto is permitted but not mandated.

    After the flap over Roosevelt's "Godless coins" in 1907 (The No Motto eagle and double eagles) Congress passed the Act of May 18, 1908 that made the motto manditory to appear on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. The one and five cent coins were exempted from the requirement but the Secretary, or the Director (with the Secretary's approval) could place the motto on them at their option.

    Finally the Act of July 11, 1955 made the appearance of the motto mandatory upon all coins of the United States.

    That act of July 11th came about because of Matthew H Rothert of Camden Ark. (coincidentally the President of the ANA) Supposedly the thought occurred to him during church that the coins in the collection plate expressed our faith in God, but that none of the paper money, which circulates much more widely outside the country, did not. And that a message about the country's faith in God could be easily carried throughout the world if it was on our paper money. He wrote to the Secretary of the Treasury, Senators, Representatives etc.

    The Act of July 11,1955 provided "At such time as new dies for the Printing of the currencyare adopted in connection with the current program of the Treasury Department to increase the capacity of the presses utilized by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, the dies shall bear at such place or places as the Secretary may determine to be appropriate, the inscription 'In God We Trust', and thereafter this inscription shall appear on all United States currency and coins."

    The first US paper money to bear the motto was released in October 1957.

    Several times there have been some attempts to have the motto removed as a matter of the government endorsement of religion, and the courts have declared that the motto is secular and not religious. But the history of it's creation and its expansion to other other coins, it's insistence of it's restoration, and its expansion to the paper currency are all clearly the result of religious involvement. Even the recent misguided outcry against the "removal of God from our coins" on the President dollars all show the religious nature of the motto.


    That enough history for you?
     
  18. Texas John

    Texas John Collector of oddments

    TR thought putting the name of God on money demeaned God.

    After all, money is used for all manner of vile purposes, by all manner of godless people.

    When a hooker gets $20 to service a client in a way that degrades them both, is it really appropriate for the means of exchange used in this sleazy transaction to express "our" trust in God?
     
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Just two thoughts.

    1. A religious nature is no reason to ban free speech or public advocacy. The Constitutional ban applies to CONGRESS making laws concerning ESTABLISHMENTS of Religion such as the Catholic Church or the Anglican Church in order to leave the worship of God up to the individual and his own conscience AND prohibition of the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. This was the primary concern of the Founders who fled State Religious institutions which had no regard for the personal freedom to worship in the manner they choose.
    The Motto was and is a political statement about the nature and aspirations of the majority of the voters.

    2. I'm no longer optimistic that the motto represents the majority after 100 years of wanton secularism run a muck. This saddens me.
     
  20. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    Also consider the fact that god is not a name but more of a title such as the Greek God Zeus or the Roman God Mars. In essence, the word "god" defines any being of a higher power than man that controls or causes control over mans ultimate destiny which is then used to direct or guide mans decisions.

    At the time of the revolution, the Church of England (originally Roman Catholic but separated from the Roman Catholic Church by Henry VIII due to specific, uhhh, marital disagreements with the church's laws) ran hand in hand with the Monarchy as a source of power. Meaning, the Monarchy established laws according to the Church and was expected to enforce those laws which were ultimately backed and defined by the Church. after all, being King (or Queen) was ultimately by "Divine Right".

    The founding fathers did not want that same "governmental architecture" (the devine right to be King or Leader) to be established in the new country since it required the citizenry to be of a specific religious persuation whether they liked it or not.
    It was, again, the Law.

    Many folks are unaware that the motto "In God We Trust" did not appear on paper currency until as late as 1957.
     
  21. Lon Chaney

    Lon Chaney Well-Known Member

    I believe the second revival was part of the reason for the change:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening
     
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