Why pay more for MS65 over 64?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Detecto92, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. lkeigwin

    lkeigwin Well-Known Member

    I didn't read the whole thread. Excuse me. But in most cases I have no trouble distinguishing a 64 from a 65, or certainly a 60 from a 63.

    If you cannot, then there's either a serious problem with the TPD grades (unlikely) or you need to spend more time in the hobby.
    Lance.
     
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  3. CoinCast

    CoinCast Member

    It's about telling the grades apart it's about justifying whether just alittle better is worth large price increase.
     
  4. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    But the OP's question does touch on one thing. In the mid-late 80's, when TPG was really getting going, MS65 was deemed "investment grade" by the TPG and as such pushed as being good investments. Well that didn't work out, but many still feel a coin must be 65 to be worthy of "investment". That still drives some price appreciation at 65.
     
  5. coppermania

    coppermania Numistatist

    I think that once one knows a series pretty well, it can be fun to spot a high end 64 or even a 65 in a 64 holder and pay 64 money for it. Then, one can also stay away from the the coins that just squeak by for the grade level or are just total dogs for the grade. A few coins I'm a total expert at and my interest is high, some I can hold my own just using basic surface recognition and basic coin collecting strategies, and others I flat out don't pay attention to and I never swim in those waters.

    Matt
     
  6. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    The circles you made at the back corner of the neck on both coins is most likely shadow lines from the collar and not distracting marks. You can't grade these very well by these pics. As I said before, the amount of luster can't adequately be judged to play into the decision, which the TPGs most certainly do. A 66 usually has even better luster than a 65. It isn't totally about contact marks. And even when there is contact marks, it depends on where they fall, depending on the series.
    On a Morgan dollar, the same exact contact mark in the middle of the cheek or in Liberty's hair details could determine the grade of the coin. It's going to take a hit for damage on the cheek or in the left field more so than a less visible area. This goes for every series. 65s on up are usually quite exceptional if you take the time to look at a few.
     
  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Interesting demonstration. The 64 is decent, the 65 is very nice, and the 66 is a dog that I would definitely prefer the 64 over. (Sorry if they are your coins, I just don't like it.) Would I pay more for the 65 than the 64? Yes. Would I pay a lot more? No. Would I pay more for the 66 than the 64? Definitely not.
     
  8. tristen1230

    tristen1230 New Member

    I find a lot of MS-60 nicer than MS-63 but I guess since the big man says it is MS-63 it is more.
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I have brg, more times than I can count. In fact I did it just yesterday in this thread - http://www.cointalk.com/t204127/


    A
    nd no, you most definitely don't have to be old. The best grader that PCGS ever had was only 18. He was an anomaly. But he put in the work and the study to get to that point.

    And while you may not think so, I think it is extremely important to tell people what not to do. Otherwise they waste a lot of time and learn a whole lot of stuff that they will have to unlearn before they can ever learn to do it right.
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's not what I mean Hunter. Let me see if I can explain. See below.

    That's part of the problem you are having Detecto. For there is a lot more that goes into determining the grade of a coin besides how many marks are on the coin. For example, even though the 63 has a lot more marks, if it has better luster, a better strike, better eye appeal, and fewer hairlines, or even if just 1 or 2 of those things were better than the 61 - then it would be deserving of the higher grade.

    There are a lot of different criteria the go into determining the grade of a coin. Some of you may not even realize what all of them are.

    1 - quality of planchet

    2 - how well centered the coin is

    3 - quality of strike

    4 - quality of luster

    5 - hairlines

    6 - contact marks

    7 - size of the contact marks

    8 - eye appeal

    9 - size of the coin

    10 - location of marks and hairlines (and it is different for every coin)

    11 - condition of coin surfaces

    12 - condition of the dies

    13 - wear

    All of these things go into determining the grade of a coin. And each one has a different level of importance.

    Now, say you have 10 graded coins. All 10 are graded MS64, but yet each one of them looks entirely different than each of the others. One has more marks than any of the others, one has better luster than of the others, one has a particularly bad mark right on the cheek, another has 3 so-so marks right on the cheek, another has a very weak strike, another is fully struck, etc etc.

    On any given coin, 1 of these things can outweigh all of the others. On any given coin, 2 or 3 or these things can outweigh all of the others. Or you can 6 things that are good and 6 things that are bad on any given coin. It is always the combination of all of the criteria added together that determines the grade.

    And this is what I was getting at about pictures. If you use only 1 picture of a coin in any given grade, that 1 picture can fall anywhere in the possible combination of criteria listed above. So that 1 picture can be very misleading when you try to compare another coin that you are trying to grade with that picture.

    You can have a 100, or a 1000, different coins all graded MS64. And every single one of them is going to look different than every single one of the others. Every coin there is, is unique, 100% unique. No 2 coins, even of the same grade, will ever have all of these criteria listed exactly the same. To grade a coin you have to weigh all of these things and their importance and see the coin as a whole.
     
  11. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    I never said I didn't think it was useful to tell people what not to do, but together with that you could have linked to one of your "more than you can count" suggested threads so they didn't have to try to dig it up themselves. Thank you for now linking to such a thread for readers here in this thread.
     
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I get there eventually brg, but I tend to post things in steps - 1 step at a time. Over the years I have found that trying to explain something as complicated as coin grading is not best done all in one shot. For one thing it's impossible to do. But mostly it's because people reading it tend to lose too much when trying to take it all in at the same time. But if you post it in bits and pieces, more of it sinks in.

    And all any of my comments are are a brief overview. It would take many hundreds of pages to explain coin grading.
     
  13. rodeoclown

    rodeoclown Dodging Bulls

    It's the "warm and fuzzy feeling" mentality some people will pay out extra money for.
     
  14. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    The Difference May Not Be Obvious To An Uninformed Collector

    I know that my comments and analogies may mean little to a relatively young individual as yourself, not knowing what might be easily understood, but you are using only one dimension of 2 different items to evaluate worth. These 2 different items are multi-dimensional, and to properly establish worth to the general purchasing market, many factors need to be considered.

    The worth of the MS63 coin you've shown is often established by the prominence of detail in the reverse bands. It is a lower mintage coin than the other example, having a date that was often improperly struck with the tail of the trailing nine blending with the rim. I know that some of these details are meaningless to the uninformed.

    I will try to present a parallel to your post which you may understand. Upon receiving my maximum allowed eBay earned bonus bucks, I perused the auctions searching for the special coin with unique "characteristics" might substantiate being purchased for my collection. I found a beautiful specimen of a NGC MS63 1885-CC Morgan Dollar that I purchased (with appreciable additional funds). Now, you might say why would you do that when many MS61 1921-P Morgan Dollars could be purchased for the same amount of funds.

    You may possibly understand my believed parallel example, and if not, additional explanation is futile.

    I recommend that you use whatever personal "standards" are appealing for your purchasing, and ignore our irrelevant suggestions. This thread has seemingly created great disparities in subjective understandings for collecting/purchasing.
    :thumb:
     
  15. RedTiger

    RedTiger Member

    The early reason was that MS65 was touted as investment grade, and investors bought many of them. A more current reason is registry set competition. Registry sets tend to drive the demand for higher grades. The always and forever reason is basic supply and demand. In some series, MS64s might be five or ten times as common as MS65s. So while plenty of collectors are happy with MS64s or lower, the supply is that much greater. The small group of quality oriented collectors that prefer higher grades may generate less demand, but where the price differences are large, the supply tends to be that much tighter. As always, collect what you like and enjoy the hobby. If it is MS65s, I would also hope the collector can grade them and tell the difference.
     
  16. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Summary - why pay more? Because sometimes the coin is worth it. Sometimes a choice 64(as already mentioned) beats the heck out of common 65. Of sometimes it becomes tough to see it in photos. You can apply this to color designations in copper also - rd, rb, bn. If you want to see some of this at work - look at some of the PCGS grading sets. Not always that easy to see, but I think when you get a typical 63,64,65 next to each other you would see the difference in luster in person. And once again we are back to buy the coin, not the holder.
     
  17. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    If you know about the coin market, forget about "book" values. I know everyone wants a deal, and doesn't want to overpay, but what you will find out when you get a little experience under you belt is that half of the coins sold are for "over" book. These are not newbies getting ripped off. A superior coin is worth superior money, which is why a superior 64 can sell for more than an inferior 65, or even a normal 65. I know it sucks, its hard, its a lot of work, but until you get to the point where you are comfortable paying over "book" for a coin, know why you are doing it, and know its still a good deal, you really do not know the market.

    If you do not know the market, then stick to "book" prices and try to not get too damaged. I am not trying to be mean, but its the truth. If you do not know what you are doing, its like you have a 76 Pinto in the same track as Nascar. You will get run over.
     
  18. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    How very true.....and after 10 years of this I am still learning and have a long way to go.
     
  19. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    :) I never said I knew it either, lol.

    There are times I am still getting run over. Its just that now sometimes I know why.

    Btw Mark, you know this was not directed at you anyway, right?
     
  20. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Yes - I knew it was not directed of me. :) I just know I still have a long way to go to be as good as some of the others on here.
     
  21. rodeoclown

    rodeoclown Dodging Bulls

    The thing about life is, you're born a newbie and you die a newbie (which goes for about everything, not just coins).
     
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