US coins that are illegal to own?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Magman, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    I assumed the name "Toven Speciman" referred to the name of the owner (or at least, a former owner).

    I have always wondered why ICG was chosen to slab this coin.
     
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I believe Toven was the name of the person who originally had the coin.
     
  4. Magman

    Magman U.S. Money Collector

    So then, the only coins that were released (to some people) and not destroyed then, are the '33 double eagle and '74 aluminum cent?
     
  5. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    From what I have read, the Toven family still has the coin. The story goes that a member of that family was a US Capitol Police Officer and found the coin in a parking lot after it had been dropped by a congressional aide. Toven picked it up and gave it back to that aide who told him to keep it. The coin was then passed through the family and slabbed in 2005.
     
  6. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    No the government SHOULDN'T because its not a corperation and that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of economics.

    If the Government turns a profit, we're all in deep trouble.

    This is a good place for people to do some homework on basic economics and finance.

    http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/index.html

    Now, anyone want to talk about the Mints profit margins this year?

    Ruben
     
  7. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Who is ICG and are they a legit grader?

    Ruben
     
  8. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    I don't think patterns are legal tender.

    Ruben
     
  9. davidh

    davidh soloist gnomic

    There were actually over 1.5 million aluminum cents dated 1974. They were minted in 1973 with the expectation that they would be approved by congress and released in 1974. To give congress an idea what the cents were like, one was "loaned" to each congressman to examine. Congress, however, folded to the copper industry and didn't pass the new legislation. The coins passed out in congress were supposed to be returned, and most of them were, with the estimated exception of 10-15 pieces. One of those was probably the speciman seen above. There is one legal and uncontested 1974 aluminum cent - it is in the Smithsonian coin collection and is on public view.
     
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  10. The_Cave_Troll

    The_Cave_Troll The Coin Troll

    Yes, I have spoken to dealers who have claimed to have been offered one to buy.

    I also believe Breen had seen one.

    There are just too many credible sightings to disregard their exitence.
     
  11. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    This is as close to proof that I have. I know this is a photoshoped image, but I like it: :)
    [​IMG]

    At one time they were considered to be one of the 2nd tier graders. People used to say it was PCGS and NGC at the top, then ANACS, followed by ICG with all the others being garbage. A while back, there was a big switch of employees with the TPGs, many of the ICG people went to ANACS. This caused ANACS and ICG to both drop in quality. A few years ago, I would have said they were a legit grader...but anymore, not so much.

    I have often wondered if this 1974 cent was submitted to ICG on their own merit or because other TPGs wouldn't touch the coin.
     
  12. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member



    Did they has a special relationship with varieties perhaps?

    Ruben
     
  13. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Not that I can remember. But, the Toven family might not be coin collectors either. So, it is possible that they just picked a TPG at random, I have heard of that happening in the past. Plus, like I said, a few years ago ICG was considered to be a reputable company. It is also possible that PCGS or NGC took a look at the coin and either wouldn't certify it because they weren't 100% sure it was real or were concerned about possible legal ramifications.
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    NGC and PCGS both would jump at the chance to slab such a coin. And both have said so, they have also said they would keep the submitter's name a secret.
     
  15. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Interesting, I did not know that.

    Here is a question for you then. Would they keep the submitter's name as well as the fact that the coin was slabbed a secret or would they list they had slabbed it? The reason I ask is, what if they slabbed a 1933 Double Eagle and listed it in their registry. Wouldn't it be possible for the secret service to notice that and through the courts (a soupena of some kind) legally force them to give up that information? Assuming they would go to that length, doesn't this put the submitter at risk even if the TPG said they would keep it a secret?

    Do the TPGs destroy submitter information or do they keep records of it?
     
  16. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member


    Yes they can. If they can jail reports of the NY Times they can do this also...it might even be considered illegal trade.

    Ruben
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sure, a court could order them to give up the information. Question is - would they ? Others have gone to jail rather than talk. And you can bet they would fight it in court.
     
  18. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    We do know they existed at one time. Is there any PROOF that any still exist in private hands? No, just unconfirmable reports, but there was no proof any 1974 aluminum cents still existed in private hands either until the Toven specimen was slabbed.

    As for the records at the TPG. I take a piece to an authorized dealer and have him submit it. I give him a fake name and address and the number of a throwaway pay as you go cell phone. I check back in from time to time until it comes in or I get called. Pick up the coin, discard the cell phone, and don't go back. Tracing the records can lead to the dealer but not to the owner of the coin.
     
  19. Magman

    Magman U.S. Money Collector

    You've done this before... eh? :secret:
     
  20. rld14

    rld14 Custom User Title

    Somehow I have a feeling that if a 1964D Peace Dollar showed up in the flesh that someone would open their mouth.....
     
  21. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    Nope, they are not... but the issue under discussion isn't whether or not you can spend them (not that any sane person would want to anyway lol...) but whether or not you can legally own them. As far as I know, although the Treasury has never confiscated any, they also have not explicitly stated they are legal to own. Pattern collectors have often pressed the Treasury to make a more firm declaration on the issue, so as not to have to worry that their patterns may be confiscated somewhere down the road, but the most they could get out of the Treasury was noncomittal responses to the effect of "if we haven't declared them illegal, they are legal" which isn't especially illuminating. But possesion being 9/10 of the law and such, if you own one, and it's not the result of a known theft of Treasury property, your patterns are probably 99.9999% safe.
     
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