THR & Associates

Oh, I really, really don't want to do this... but I think I'm ethically obligated.

THR's eBay accounts are/were coinsantiques.10, coinsantiques.13, coinsantiques.18, coinsantiques.22, coinsantiques.25, and coinsantiques.18. I know this because I bought quite a lot from them before I became aware of the claims against them. They stopped selling about the time this all blew up.

The account I most often bought from, coinsantiques.18, sold a variety of mostly numismatic material. It included bundles of proof sets, "unsearched" lots of various types of coins (IHCs, Liberty nickels, Buffalo nickels, seated and Barber dimes, quarters and halves), small lots of slabbed silver dollars, and various other things.

For the Liberty nickel lots, they originally laid out all the coins on a scanner and showed obverse and reverse images; later, they just dumped them in piles onto a scanner. In those piles, you could sometimes see an S mint-mark or an 1885 or 1886 date; those lots typically were bid higher, of course.

For the dimes, quarters and halves, they would image both sides of the whole lot using a scanner. I saw lots with VERY key dates (1892-o and 1892-s halves, 1896-s and 1913-s quarters), and some coins in higher grades (f-vf and occasionally higher). The keys always appeared in lots, just like the commons; they were never auctioned separately.

In every case, THR listed the lot as a true auction, started at 99 cents. In every case, they described the lot clearly and conservatively.

I bought many lots. I was outbid on many more; there was a lot of competition, most of it from repeat customers, judging by the feedback they left. I filled most of a Barber half collection from those lots. I bought a lot of rounds for $50 that was listed as "metal content unknown", verified that they were .999 silver, and sold them at the next LCS for over $200. I bid on a roll of Kennedy halves that were not listed as silver in the description, but looked like it in the image; they were, and I got them for $100, when melt was over $220. (Somebody else clearly suspected they were silver, but wasn't bold enough to bid higher; since they were listed with a 7-day unconditional return, I figured I was risking only return postage.)

I don't know whether THR tried to pass fakes; I didn't receive any myself. I did see lots that were listed as "reproductions" or "metal content unknown", and all non-bulk lots were listed with return privileges.

I don't know what THR was melting. They rarely listed gold, but did occasionally list modern gold commemoratives. They never listed bulk Mercury or Roosevelt dimes, Washington quarters, or WL, Franklin or Kennedy halves -- I saw occasional single-date rolls of each, but no "piles" of them. As I said before, there were many lots of Barber coins, along with Standing Liberty quarters, Seated Liberty in all denominations, Bust dimes and half dimes, 40% Ikes, and miscellaneous older commemoratives. Based on what I saw, they were NOT wantonly sending everything to the pots.

Now I've got quite a lot of coinage that came from what appears to be a tainted source. I got some good deals, and no bad ones, but I know that those deals arose because someone, somewhere, got a really rotten deal when they sold. And I'm not sure what to do on the basis of that knowledge. I'm a bargain hunter, and you generally get bargains by knowing something that your seller doesn't. Where does the ethical line fall?

 

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Yes, I believe that they are thieves, not a doubt. And Matt Enright will continue to try to spin everything in a positive light - even now, some of what he says is laughable. He stated that THR "didn't know" why their PNC bank account was closed and all the checks bounced. What he didn't mention is that PNC arranged a meeting with Jeff & the bankers, to try to figure out how to work out the account problems, and Jeff blew them off and refused to go. The bank then refused to pay those 4,000 checks.

Jeff Parsons is at best a megalomaniac, and at worst, a sociopath. I think the best quote I ever heard out of anyone in that organization was in regards to Mr. Parsons and his two associates, the DeLong brothers. The quote was from a fellow employee in upper management, and in regards to the triumvirate, said "I don't think there's a GED between them..." This business wasn't run on savvy, or smarts - or even with an eye to sustaining it into the future. It was run PURELY on greed - Jeff likes money. ALL the money.

In regards to eBay.


Jeffb - Don't feel bad. If you had not published their eBay IDs, I would have. In fact, they had every coinsantiques ID from 10 - 21. So, coinsantiques.10, coinsantiques.11, etc.... They switched them around and would use different IDs at different times, and changed the account names on a couple of occasions. The "coinsantiques.13" ID is now "buyselltrade.1".

It is rumored that eBay shut their accounts down when the news of the bounced checks hit national media. Too much liability. I don't know this as a fact, but it makes some sense. There were weekly calls with the company's eBay representatives, so eBay was in the loop with the business dealings - but again, if eBay had closed the accounts, I think that they would have become "NARU" (Not A Registered User) and they appear to be live accounts, still. I do know that everyone who worked in the eBay and shipping departments was laid off. I've been anticipating the end of his eBay department for some time, the quality of what he was selling on eBay had degraded so much - he was selling a tiny fraction of the numismatics he used to sell - it was mostly garbage, so he may have cut the eBay department loose to save on payroll. Lots of payroll checks bounced that last week, so that could very well be the reason. Hard to tell.


The reason they stopped laying out the lots of 200 nickels was because it took too much TIME. The eBay employees were paid a flat rate per hour, until they reached X number of auctions per week (it used to be 200), and then they were paid a bonus of $2.50 per auction listed in excess of 200. (This may have changed since I left, but it's the way it used to be). So there was a lot of motivation to list as many as possible, and laying out 200 nickels just took too long. Additionally, there were customers who would accuse THR of swapping coins, especially on the nickel lots, so they stopped lining them up.

You would find Key dates in with unsearched lots because there was no time to have someone search all of the coinage they received for key dates, and the eBay listers were basically trained monkeys. Most of them did not know a key date from a slug. They just listed what was there. The 'Unknown Metal Content" was for rounds that were not marked. Sometimes they'd be silver, sometimes plated, but THR never took the time to find out before listing them.

They used to sell tons of gold on eBay, and lots of fakes in the gold. They would just claim ignorance, even if a lister brought them something that was suspicious. Jeff's son was running the eBay and "processing" side of the business, and while he was a nice enough guy, again, he's not very smart. Oh, and trade dollars. I don't think I EVER saw a legitimate trade dollar while I was there, but they sold tons of them. I don't know why they couldn't teach their buyers to simply weigh the trade dollars, but they didn't, and bought a lot of fakes. Jeff tried to sell fake Rolex watches on eBay, but eBay wouldn't let him. Almost all the gold was going to melt by the time I left. So were the Peace dollars, morgan dollars, Walking lib halves, well, just about anything that was 90%. At one point they were shipping truckloads of antiques and pocket watches to Heritage in Texas. Don't know if they are still doing that or not, but they were getting advances from Heritage and at least one local gold shop every week - they ALWAYS were operating in a deficit, and CONSTANTLY borrowed against future sales. JeffB - when did you start buying from them? Before I left, the quality and variety of the coins they were listing was MUCH MUCH better than it was about the time they changed the account names to the "coinsantiques" names. Did you ever buy from the accounts before they changed the names? The prior names were based on Shakespearean characters, I don't remember them exactly, but there was Feste.217, Iago, Apollo, Cressida, all followed by a number, and several more that I cannot remember. They also had a half dozen accounts that sold antiques that were named after presidents. They sold some good stuff back then - lots of gold, lots of 90% - the vast majority of that goes to (or went to, they may have depleted their stash) melt now. They had moved to listing a lot of broken watches and costume jewelry during the last 6 months or so, from what I could tell. They must have been throwing some coins in too, to keep the buyers coming back and looking.

So yeah. Unethical organization. Definite thieving, lots of VERY POOR business decisions. Jeff didn't run this business so that it would stand the test of time. It was more of a smash and grab - get as much of the money as you can as fast as you can, then cut your losses and walk away. He's done it before, but it looks like it might be a little more difficult for him to walk away from this one unscathed. I'd love to know if they are still conducting shows in hotels, and if so, under what name. They announced that they were going to take a week off - I wonder if they ever came back from that.

 

Thank you for presenting the real side of the story has a concinese. From what I read ..many workers quit after one day because their guilt got the better of them. The few that stayed did so because they could not find work elsewhere. It made me really sad last year because many yardsales I went to....I asked for old coins. Many replies I got where " I took them to the roadshow " it made be sad because I would of paid more..a lot more.

 

This was a good read.

 

Like anyone that operates in and out of the shades of gray ethics, these people live in a state of denial. And they will until the bitter end, even after their escapades are over. Logic and examples will serve no purpose, as this way of life has now become "their way of life". Be happy it's not your way of life.

 

This just in:
http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x465797164/IRS-Illinois-say-THR-owes-1-9-million-in-back-taxes

THR & Associates of Springfield owes more than $1.9 million in back income taxes, interest and penalties, according to federal and state liens placed on company properties.

"

THR chief executive officer Jeffrey Parsons owes the IRS more than three million dollars, and according to court documents he’s been using the company bank account as his personal piggy bank."

For what it's worth, notaliar is probably Matthew Enright himself.

Too bad, the cat is been out of the bag for some times, but notaliar is still saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

As my latest sources indicate, THR has wrote at least 4,200 bad checks.



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It's very interesting to watch a company like this go down in flames. I see that as being an insurmountable amount of money for a company to dig it's way out of...

 

I've seen a lot of this recently, not with just this economy.

If people can't make money honestly, then they will make it dishonestly.

I really think THR would of been a good idea, but the head honcho had a bad case of greed. They could of done really well if they would of paid people an honest amount for their stuff. Too bad.

 

I guess they're finding out that when you burn bridges for a living, sooner or latter you burn the one you're standing on.
Guy

 

The debt to the IRS is not the only debt they face - they owe about $45k to Masco Packaging, and a group of former on the road employees have filed a class action lawsuit claiming that THR treated them as hourly employees when they were, in reality, being paid a flat salary, and refused to pay vacation pay. I'm sure that they owe money to many, many more businesses and entities, which will come to light slowly as this thing progresses.

Here's a nice bit by CBS. This video has a BRILLIANT bit where the reporter asks Matt Enright if he feels guilty. His reply is PRICELESS (oh, and yes, would not be surprised if Notaliar isn't Matt Enright. Or Jordan Parsons, Jeff's son and VP of "Marketing" - there cannot be too many employees left at this point, just Jeff's family and cronies):

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7410132n

More on the class action:

http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x272271026/Employees-sue-Parsons-THR-Associates

There's lots and lots more out there. They are really generating some buzz - but like Detecto said, THR's official stance is "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."


PS - Notaliar's justification that it's OK for THR to lie to customers about their gold items because customers come in and LIE to them every day is not only ridiculous and illogical, it's an EXCELLENT example of the B/S dogma that Jeff Parson's teaches his management and loyal employees. They become so indoctrinated, I wonder if they believe their own ridiculous justifications.

 

Detecto - You are absolutely right. It would have been - no pun intended -a gold mine if he had the gumption to do this legally and ethically. One that could have sustained him and many, many employees for years and years and years. Unfortunately, he's too greedy for that.

 

sorry for the double post...

 

I just want to share a little of my experience with THR:

First off, they were just set up at a hotel near me the other day. I read the full page ad in the newspaper and thought,"Why would someone NOT take their coins to them.......if they had no prior knowledge in coins."
1. They put the absolute maximum that they will pay for a coin type, leading people to believe that they might have something special. They then take their handful of mercury dimes to them, expecting to walk away with at least 50k, where they find out that their dimes are worth about $1.30 each(to the crooked buyers at least). They think about, realize that they aren't doing them any good sitting in their drawer, so they sell them. THR's high advertised prices draw people in.
2. Towards the end of their full page ad, it states that this might be the sellers only chance to get rid of their hard to sell coins. It takes only 2 minutes and twice as many brain cells to get on eBay and see that coins are not hard to sell at all!

As for their buying kiosks and lack of employee education, I have one more story. At my local mall they had one of their stands set up. I walked up to the employee and asked what they were paying for 1/10th oz gold eagles. The employee told me that coins marked 1/10th oz. are fake and are worth nothing!? I argued with him for about 5 minutes that I am a coin collector, have been on the U.S. Mint's website and KNOW that they are real. Finally, he called his manager, where he found out that I was right and it wasn't fake.
He then proceeds to tell me that the best he could offer me was about $120. I told him that spot was at about $1700, and 1/10th oz. AGE trade for a premium over that. He told me that they have to buy under spot, because they send EVERYTHING that they buy off to be melted. He then tried to convince me that buying gold and silver is not a smart investment, because you won't make money until it doubles in price. Overall, I was quite a bit ticked at this guy until I walked away. I have a feeling that he was just angry because a 15 yr old knew more about what he was talking about then he did.

Anyhow, just my experience with the crooked thieves. Now everyone, ease quit posting so I can go to bed

 

$1.30 for silver dimes and $120 for $5 AGEs? Sounds like right around 40% below resale price -- which, coincidentally, I've frequently heard quoted as the standard margin for established dealers.

Yes, I know legitimate dealers pay closer to melt when buying bullion or junk silver. But 60% of spot is a pretty far cry from the 25-30% of spot others have accused THR of offering. I'd still be happy to pay more than that myself, but I'm not sure it's pitchfork-worthy.

 

What they say they will pay, and what they actually pay are two different things.

They are not going to admit the actual low prices they pay.

 

Those are the prices they were actually offering a few days ago, according to the previous post.

 

The poster does not say he took anything to sell, but simply asked what they were paying.

Do you think they are going to tell someone what they actually pay? "Yes, we pay 75 cents per dime", they are not going to do that.

Now if he walked into that place, with silver dimes to sell, they are probably going to offer less than $1.30 each.

 

I was just commenting about their marketing strategies. In their ads they show a picture of a common Merc, and then they say they are paying up to an astronomical figure for them. Someone assumes that they will be rich from selling their coins, simply because the ad leaves out the info saying that the chance of them having a coin worth that much are extremely low. They take their coins in, and sell them once they are told that their coins are practically worthless.