Norfed-Liberty Dollars

T$! Those look really great using the new camera, the cartwheels are spinning! and the devices really pop!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Largest denominations:

Copper: $2 (2010 Gun Dollar, posted above)

Silver: $100 (2006 5 Ounce) (Also, in 2006 a $50 was made, with five ounces as well, and the same obverse die was used for both the $100 and $50) There was also a $50 silver that was made for the 2008, ten year anniversary, this coin however contained only one ounce of silver.

Gold: $1000 (2006 One Ounce and 2008 Ron Paul Edition 1 Ounce)

Platinum: $2000 (Ron Paul Edition)

Here is a site I have always highly recommended when it comes to these dollars.

http://sites.google.com/site/libertydollarencyclopedia/one-ounce-silver-series

Thanks! I personally like the 2009 Silver that I posted. The thing looks frosted, a large improvement from the point and shoot photos!

 

+1

 

And the government objected why, exactly?

 

The government believed this organization and their alternate 'barter' currency undermined the currency by the United States of America.

 

Are the silver also avoirdupois? Or just the copper rounds?

My knowledge of these is limited, I knew the story behind them what with the federal government raiding them, and personally I think the whole premise is a very cool idea. I'd prefer if some weren't tarnished by radical political ideology though... but what can you do? As for 'collectible bullion,' the only experience I've had with that was with old "pour" bars (with the air pocket marks on the bottom from casting). I once sold a 1 oz ingot (it was oddly shaped) for 43 dollars back when silver was 13 an oz. It seems anything silver with any attributes that can be perceived as 'unique' is bound to command a premium amongst collectors somewhere in the world.

 

They chose to put Ron Paul and other political messages on them because that is their message. That is what they stand for.
On the subject of Ron Paul he also believes in such currency and is a fan of Liberty Dollar, thus why he was featured on the dollars.

Yes I agree any bullion that is unique will drive a premium, but this is special. This is being accepted as a barter currency in multiple places and the whole organization has a huge support group.

 

It seems the problem was basically that the system was a heads-we-win-tails-you-lose scam, and was at essence an attempt to create a private fiat currency, rather than a commodity based system of exchange:

"Liberty Dollar associates and merchants used to exchange for Liberty Dollars at a discount, so they could "make money when [they] spend money."To further distinguish how Liberty Dollar works, von NotHaus transitioned to a commission structure in June 2007 where associates and merchants receive a commission in the form of extra Liberty Dollars when they place their orders. Regional currency officers have always received larger discounts, since they are the regional distributors and official representatives of Liberty Services.


The Liberty Dollar associate and merchant discounts can range from 0.0%-50%+ (zero to more than fifty percent) depending on where the price of silver is, relative to the Liberty Dollar base value, the Liberty Dollar base value crossover points, and the time periods the price has stayed above varying moving-day averages over 30, 60 or 90 days in a fluctuating market, based on Liberty Dollar formulas worked out by von NotHaus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

 

I understand why those messages are on the currency, naturally anyone running such a program has the right to implement whatever images they wish on their products, however it seems the basic premise (developing currencies with intrinsic, market-determined worth to combat the idea of fiat currencies) is independent of political orientation, and by branding these pieces with "TEA PARTY" and "RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT," the company is effectively appealing to one demographic. This is the one aversion I have towards these pieces, but obviously idealized worlds rarely coincide with the realm of reality. It would seem that they could keep it a politically neutral message? At the end of the day we all know nothing is free and everything is done for a reason; I return to the statement of resignation I made in my first post:

On topic; any word on whether or not the silver rounds are AV or Troy oz.? I couldn't find anything on it through some Google searchings

edit: seems the silvers are Troy, coppers are AV

 

Which is true. The discounts for the associate and merchants are large, and it does make them money. The supporters of the dollars see it this way. The associates/merchants work for Liberty Dollar, they get a discount for that reason. They can keep the dollars for themselves or sell them for profits, thus driving the numismatic value for these high. It still is concept currency, the idea behind the currency doesn't change.
One would think in Bernard's shoes, that you would want to make money as well...

 

Well, then he should have sold silver rounds, and maybe silver certificates, without also calling them dollars, and let the market decide their worth. When he set up a system that calls them silver when the market is down and dollars when the market is up, he guaranteed to himself a profit.

"Liberty Services maintains the parity of one Liberty Dollar to one US$1 by re-basing Liberty Dollars as the purchasing power of the US Dollar falls, leading to the circulation of two different versions during re-basing transition periods."

Heads-he-wins, tails-you-lose. Why would anybody fall for this?

 

I'll try to keep politics out of this as best I can.
It isn't about falling for it. I buy the dollars because I do like the design, and I like what they stand for.
Others do the same, the collectors aren't a bunch of deaf, blind and dumb citizens that go crazy with the money they have. They like many others disagree with the way the government spends and prints money that doesn't exist. This bartering currency was made from metals, with value. I don't know about yourself, but I would want a round of silver in my pocket, than a piece of paper.

Unfortunately, under current situations I highly doubt that the Liberty Dollars will ever take off. The government might've been right in thinking these undermine their currency, but what does it tell you when you have quite a few people finding alternatives because they don't want to use the unreliable money printed by the United States.

 

I said earlier there's nothing wrong with collecting them, if that's where your heart lies.

The enterprise itself is (was) a scam. If the certificates were redeemable on demand for a fixed amount of silver or whatever, that would be one thing. But this constant revaluing and multi-layered types of redemption offered made it like a gilded chain letter.

As for a threat to the currency - don't flatter NORFED or whatever it's called. The only threat to any currency was to that in the pockets of those who didn't grok to the fact they were being fleeced.

 

There really isn't anything new, or IMO, illegal about this. For any decades after the Civil War, Southern cotton mills would often pay part of all of their workers' salary in paper credits issued by the Mill that could only be spent in stores or housing owned by the textile mill. Often other businesses in the town would accept them as well if they could make an arrangement with the mill for credit. Obviously they did this in order, in part, to keep control over their workers. It's a very similar concept to what we have now though much more ubiquitous and it has gone on for so long that it's accepted as a normal state of affairs in this country.

The US Constitution does not prevent such a thing nor require that people conduct business in commodities. It only states that the government has to do this.

 

edited

In any case I like the coins and have been on the lookout for a few examples at various coins shows I've been too. Unfortunately they seem pretty rare these days. Nice collectors items with a very interesting story behind them. It's what makes coin collecting interesting.

 

If it wasn't a threat, why was the operation shut down?

And I don't know if you can really say you are being fleeced when you receive coins at discount, to sell them at higher prices, or trade them to spread the word for an organization that had over a ten year run.

 

Here's the one silver Norfed I have but I just won a couple other's. I'm waiting on a California 2009 and a Freedom Norfed 2009, both 1 ouncers. Have you noticed the prices getting crazy and all the 1/10 th's being sold? Crazy!! The one in the pic is a 1/2oz 2003.

Anyone know if the dude is still in jail awaiting trial? What a case? edited




edited

 

edited It's someone not thinking clearly about what they are saying. So I would say let the law take it's due course but release these four individuals on bail until the case is decided. I feel they pose no real threat to our country or my well being. Perhaps they are out on bail already, but I have not heard.

 

To the best of my knowledge, Bernard is no longer in jail.

Edit: I had typed in earlier that he was in jail, but I have since found out that he is no longer in jail and is awaiting a court date.