Natural or Artificial toning; your opinions.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by bqcoins, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    This goes back to the definition of AT. For those that think that "intent" is the deciding factor, then the coin would be considered NT. However, the TPG graders can't have knowledge of intent and must grade the coin simply by it's appearance. A coin that was improperly stored and develops unusual toning will (and should be) graded a details coin for questionable toning.
     
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    If you are gonna resubmit that coin, I suggest you dip it first.
     
    LostDutchman likes this.
  4. bqcoins

    bqcoins Olympic Figure Skating Scoring System Expert

    The beautiful toning was the only reason I submitted it in the first place.
     
  5. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Apparently, we define beautiful differently.
     
  6. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    I understand, but if I were to be the jerk I am I would say ANY toning is proof of improper storage. Therefor, any toned coin should be details grade if this is the test.

    Sorry, but using the albums they were selling at the time and happening to live in a humid environment, (this was before 99% of the country had air conditioning), I am not really considering "improper storage".
     
  7. bqcoins

    bqcoins Olympic Figure Skating Scoring System Expert

    Could be, it is in the eye of the beholder. I just happen to like blue quarters.
     
  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Did you miss the word unusual in my post? There are many toning patterns and color schemes that are widely accepted as market acceptable. Furthermore, many of these toning patterns take decades to develop. It is only the UNUSUAL toning patterns that are proof of improper storage. Now I will admit that what constitutes "UNUSUAL" is somewhat of a moving target.

    It is unfortunate for those who had coins stored in albums with no access to air conditioning. While not intending to improperly store their coins, the TPG graders have no way of knowing that their intentions were good. All they know is what they see on the coin. And when they see blue & violet toning on silver coins, they are going to deem the toning questionable almost all of the time. It makes no difference whether the coin was actually artificially toned or not. Artificial toning or toning resulting from improper storage will yield the same result, a problem coin!
     
  9. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    To me it just goes to what I have been saying, that people should ignore color and concentrate on surfaces. If you are saying, (which is what I am reading), that the entire coin market admits they are arbitrarily defining what is "usual" or "acceptable" with this definition having no basis in reality, (because like Doug has always said you cannot prove one way or the other), then I simply believe the entire market is flawed.

    Just makes me sad to see a coin like this shunned by the hobby, a coin I believe could be original, (because I have seen personally similar coins I knew to be original). Yet, OTOH, I have seen "acceptable" toning applied within a couple of days to coins with my own eyes. "Arbitrary and capricious" I believe is how I would describe it legally.

    Edit: Btw, no disrespect meant Paul. I think this simply boils down to our disagreement on this market. Maybe I have just been around too long to understand this market nowadays. I think I have demostrated I know what natural toning is, progression, etc. I have studied that more than you probably know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The color is part of the surface. You can't ignore something because it is complex. The current system may seem flawed. It may actually be flawed. But unless they propose a better system, I usually tend to ignore the criticism most people give the current system of market acceptability.

    You are right, the WQ in this thread could be original. But this is not the US justice system. Coins are not "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" In fact, it is the other way around. When there is any significant doubt, the TPG's tend to err on the side of caution and deem the toning questionable. The simple fact is that the blue & violet color scheme on silver coins is not indicative of a proper storage method and even worse, it is an easily repeatable color scheme through various AT methods. Both are very good reasons why this unusual color scheme is almost always deemed questionable.

    As for you having seen "acceptable" toning applied to coins, then I submit that as a representative our great hobby, you bear the responsibility to publicly expose any coin doctor who is successfully artificially toning coins for profit. IMO, your failure to do so makes you complicit. Why would a coin doctor risk his revenue stream to show you his coin doctoring skills, either by result or method?
     
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    It was back before toning had a premium. It was just to cover the cleaning and make it more pleasing. The man who showed me did it to show me, not to do it for a profit. He is deceased, (but I do believe he used to do it to collector coins). Anyone who has read my post over 4 years here might know his name, but I will not besmirch the name of a dead man, nor any other older dealers whom I used to discuss this topic with at coin shows when business was slow. It was no big secret, especially when there was no such thing as a toning premium.

    However, I used to buy lots of old collections, lots and lots. I saw how they were stored, I saw what they looked like when they came out of that storage, and then "played around" replicating the same thing. This is why I know how an original silver coin is very much different reactively than a circulated or overdipped coin. This is why I can recognize envelope toning, folder toning, zapped coins, chemically applied coins, etc. Its not rocket science, yet neither is it something I will ever teach anyone. I learned over a decade because of my own curiousity. I still to this day seek out untouched collections because I wish to see how they were stored and what the coins look like. I would buy old collections of coins simply for the priviliege of studying their storage conditions. I also got pretty good at dipping coins, because many of the coins in these collections were in bad shape, (matte black), and needed help if they were to be saved. For some reason it simply fascinates me, the coin chemistry and reaction.

    I will say I personally know of no one who does this to coins today. Part of this is because I haven't been around US coins for well over a decade, part is because all of the men I talked to this about are dead, but if anyone assumes this is impossible to do, impossible to fool a TPG, I would consider that statement to be foolish. I am sure the TPG can catch the chemical appliers and zappers, but other ways? I doubt it.
     
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    This subject is one of my pet peeves. I have been involved in the toned coin market for well over a decade. I have had conversations like this with tens if not hundreds of people. Of all of the people who claim that they have first hand knowledge of a coin doctor who can artificially tone coins that will consistently fool the TPG graders, not one was ever willing to divulge the name of the coin doctor. Let me repeat that! The number of people with first hand knowledge willing to publicly divulge the name of coin doctor is ZERO!

    I'm sorry, but if a collector has any regard for the integrity of the hobby, they should be compelled to expose those within our hobby who are guilty of fraud. And artificially toning coins, whether to cover existing problems or enhance eye appeal is fraud. It leads me to believe that a large majority of the people who claim they have first hand knowledge of successful AT coin doctors are lying.

    That said, I don't believe you are lying. I believe that you knew a guy back in the 80's and 90's who was able to apply monochromatic toning in order to hide flaws on a coin. And I also believe that there is a small group of people who are capable of getting some of their AT creations past the graders at the TPG's. But make no mistake, it is extremely difficult and those who know have extremely strong incentives not to teach or even tell anyone their secrets. If the secret of ATing coins to enhance eye appeal was common knowledge, their would be no premium associated with the coins because they would become nothing more than common widgets, much like their dipped white counterparts.
     
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There's one thing you're not thinking of Paul, exposing the name(s) of those who can easily AT coins is a bad idea because it then makes them available to those who would offer to pay them to AT coins for them. It would also make it possible for them to ask to be taught how to do it themselves. And even more of them being on the market, well that's just a bad idea.
     
  14. medoraman

    medoraman Well-Known Member

    I cannot name one today sir since I know none, (except myself if knowledge is suspect here). Regarding monochromatic toning, yes, that is all that would be achievable for an overdipped or circulated coin unless you zap it or chemically apply something. A untouched coin with fresh silver surfaces? You can only get monochromatic toning on that coin if you intentionally tried. Actually, unless you went to grey I am not sure how you could get a uniform tone on such a coin.

    Anyway, we can agree to disagree sir. I am unwilling to discuss the subject more deeply on here. I know this is the source of our biggest disagreement, so we can just call it a draw and agree to be friends.
     
    Lehigh96 likes this.
  15. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    So you think that making their names public would actually increase their profits? Doug, seriously think about what you just wrote. If that had any chance of being true, they would take out full page ads on their own.
     
  16. bqcoins

    bqcoins Olympic Figure Skating Scoring System Expert

    IMG_2595.jpg IMG_2593.jpg See, here is the thing. I honestly thought the coin would grade, which is why I sent it in. I also sent in another wildly toned blue coin, and it did indeed grade. This blueberry of a coin managed to come back MS66 and its toning is far more vivid than the 34's. Granted they were purchased at different times from the same dealer, but I rescued this one from being dipped.
     
  17. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I could have predicted that the coin wouldn't grade, as that is not a color normally associated with Washington Quarters. TPGs go a lot by what the normal toning patters of a coin series are, depending on storage, metal composition, age, etc. Album toning is tricky, because it is difficult for a TPG to determine "intent--" was the coin stored in a way so as to promote toning, or was it a natural/accidental chemical reaction and buy product of its location and storage situation.
     
  18. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    While the color schemes on the two coins seems similar, I see some very key differences on this second coin that are NT indicators that are not present on the first coin. First the toning on this coin is much less blue and more intermingled shades of pink and blue which would indicate a gradual toning of the coin over time. Second, there are very few spots on this coin where the toning creeps over relief changes. On the first coin, all of the lettering, numbering, and rims are toned blue. On this coin, IGWT is toned, but the majority of the rims and LIBERTY display a different shade than the surrounding fields of the coin. The date has some areas that are toned and others that are not, which again indicates a gradual growth of the toning layer over a long period of time.

    IMO, this coin could also have been deemed questionable, but I understand why the TPG would make the decision that it is market acceptable. It is certainly less questionable than the 1934 WQ. My problem with this coin is that the toning correspondence is incorrect.
     
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well I've never seen full page ads Paul, but I have seen ads for it. More than once.
     
  20. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    That is scary. Next time you see one, let us know so I can see it.
     
  21. torontokuba

    torontokuba Thread Crapper & Hijacker, TP please.

    Here are some hints of blue on a PCGS MS62...


    $_57-6.JPG
     
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