MS/PR69 OR MS/PR70~Can you tell the difference?

Certainly not intended that way Ruben I can assure you. Just calling them like I see them and asking a legit question of members.

Since we're on the subject though I have noticed, at times, that you like Ike Dollars. To a guy like me these are "modern" but compared to what is "modern" now they're getting "old". Kinda scary actually.

I doth digress though. Now considering the Ikes' last mintage was in 1978 before the "TPG revolution" they were slabbed after the fact as it were. What grades would we see if they were being slabbed as First Strike in 1978? How would they hold out in a slab?

I ask this because I've seen SO MANY "Brown Ikes" and usually they have a nice haze going on. This past Sunday I looked a collection of a friend's mother (who passed away). Lots of Ikes including 5 73-S brown Ikes. All had some hazing.
I wouldn't touch the hazed Ikes, however, I would consider some of the Uncs. Very clean surfaces in original packaging actually.
MS70? No way. MS69 no way. MS66-67? - a definite possibility. The sets were well kept and only 30 or so years old but technology was different then and no TPGs to be found.

So back to the original gist. I'd take an MS67 Ike over an MS70 Presidential Dollar any day and have a better shot at explaining why it merited (or didn't) the grade.

 

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I've always read (read the book first) that there is virtually no difference between a 69 and a 70. The few modern slabs I have (bought for my own amusement, not investments) are all PR69. I will not pay the extra for a 70. Not worth the difference in price to me! (song; 'close enough to perfect, for me')

 

Thonk when you find Ikes even in the MS65 level your doing very good. Even those they put in plastic wrap are not nearly as good as say the ASE's you get from the mint today.

http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t42628/

http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t42633/

 

MS/PR69 or...........................

...........the only way to tell absolutely for sure is to spot the CAC sticker!!

we ALL have faith in those guys!!

 

I cannot tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. I really believe it is just paying for the slab. However, I fight with myself constantly about whether to pay the premium. It is somewhat irrational, but if these modern coins are going to have numismatic value in the future, I have to believe that the 70s will appreciate more than the 69s. It is a crazy distinction though.

 

I don't think I could tell the difference. I am very confident that if I found a coin with a great stike and I could no flaws, large or microscopic, the coin would come back 68 or 69.

I am also confident that if an ebay powerseller sent in several rolls of silver eagles, a good pecentage would come back 70.

 

Yes I can......but I need my 12X to do so.

 

MS-69, or 70 - who cares! Not one person on here can do it!

I am certain that not one person on here could tell a raw MS-, or PR. 69 from a 70 more than just as a random guess and if pressed to do it 10 times would most likely be wrong 6 and be right 4 or be right 7 and be wrong 3 or, or, or,
Who cares? I mean really who cares???
If you bring in a set of PCGS MS, or PR. - 69 Silver eagles to our show you will get the dealers bid price, (probably 10 back of bid) for the set like that or if raw, no difference. If you brought in a MS, or PR. -70 set no dealer would want them because you would have some grandiose assumption that they are the rarest thing going and would want a small fortune for them. In other words they would not be sell-able at all, (to the dealers I know) say some 40 to 60 different ones I deal with.
I know there are some dealers who would want them but not me.
With any MS or PR. 69 or 70 modern coin you have a flawless coin to begin with and a common one to boot - these are not rare, they will never be rare and there will always be boxes full of them.
This is a modern make believe market fueled by the big "3" who have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain from it's proliferation - don't you'all see that?? It's a game - it's a game where the ones that win are the ones that created it.
If you want a rare coin get a 12-S Nickle in AU-55 or a 14-D Lincoln in 64-Red - these are rare, they are real, they will always be worth big money no matter what - the modern ultra graded high end entombed in plastic coins will one day be worth no more (and most likely not as much) as the stuff in it's original holder, mark my word on this one, I guarantee it!

Ben (not a slave to plastic) Peters

 

Here, here....well said Ben.

 

I think if you take coins both graded 69 and 70 and examine them closely, you will likely find very subtile differences in the grade. That 70s are better by the most minimal of standards. However, no 70 will be the same. IMHO, the difference between a 69 and a 70 is so small that it's not worth the premium.

 

Let me go out on a limb here for a second Ben. Did my topic trip your trigger a teeny bit?

I'm not going to say I disagree with you as I really don't. I've just toned down how I express it over time here on CT.

Yes, it is a game and the TPGs do come out on top as well as the dealers. We'll slab stuff all day for the grade if we think it might get it then put it on the 'bay so someone can pay a ridiculous premium of THEIR choosing.

Give me a legint, high grade "real" coin every time. They tend to hold value.

Walk into the shop with your PCGS MS70 whatever and the first thing we do is look it up on ebay. If we DO find a few recent completed auctions we'll give you a "fair" price. "Fair" being we'll put it up and make a few bucks. This is one of the ways a shop makes money.

We've been watching the 2009 Ultra High Relief coins the past few days. Folks are PRE selling these and getting $1400 plus! Hello, order it from the mint if you want it. Save a few bucks (or hundreds).
On the other hand you could get an MS69 or 70 from Chattanooga Coin. I'm sure some of you have seen the pre-sell ads in magazines. Sure, they'll have them and you can get one at an exhorbitant price of $2000 plus. I don't remember the exact price because I just turn the page at work and laugh. NGC slabs by the way from what I can tell.

So let's think about this folks. A huge "dealer" (and I use the term oh so lightly) can presell these coins because they KNOW they will most likely meet demand. If not it's just a refund and "out of stock". Ding, ding, ding! Warning bells!


The technolgy exists at the mint for them to turn out "69s and 70s" all day. I'm still waiting to see an actual MS70 though.

For what it's worth I bought my Ultra High Relief. Didn't want it nor can I afford it. The boss has already paid me for it plus a bonus (wouldn't have wasted my time for nothing). I've got my money and he'll make his. Works for me.

Thanks for your rant Ben Peters. Got me fired up again.

clembo

 

It kind of tripped my trigger, but not much,

It really didn't trip my trigger that much - those are just my beliefs. I don't like slabs and I do not like TPG companies. There is nothing I like better than taking a pair of pliers to the corner of a slab and crack it off then liberate that coin from it's tomb.
Actually I got kind of excited as it provided a forum for my thoughts on the subject. Sometimes (often) I come off a little harder than I really mean, that's just me - if you see me in person the way I come off is 10 times worse than how I am on here, (and that's after working to tone it down now for over 20 years). It was just a survival tool that after I grew up, (at 48) I learned I no longer needed - but I do have "that look" - don't particularly like that I do but must admit I do.
Mostly on here I want to learn, teach what I have learned, and have fun.

It took me almost 56 years to fully learn that it's not so much about being right as it is about being kind, not about asking why but asking when, not about asking when but asking "where and how can I help someone today"

Ben (got to be me) Peters

 

I have stated many times that I generally like TPGs and appreciate the service. But no, I can't tell the difference between a 69 and 70. Is this important? I don't think so. The difference in price between the two grades is the fault of the collecting community, not the TPGs. The price differential astonishes me sometimes. A modern gold commem graded MS/PF69 frequently sells for melt value. The 70s carry large premiums. Both coins are visually identical. Go figure. I'm more of an analog person than a digital one anyway, and a visually appealing coin is perfectly acceptable regardless of the numeric value.