***LEARNING About Matte Proof Lincolns***

I'm not sure that the normal die diagnostics would apply here. The 1909 VBD marked the first time that the Mint would try to make matte proof copper coins, and there was undoubtedly a lot of experimentation done before the first proofs were sold to collectors. And it seems likely that some rejects would have been made in the process. According to my grandmother, the original owner of this coin was a Philly Mint employee in 1909, so it is possible that he could have had access to the rejects, as well as to the final product.

 

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Thanks coinguy56, I ordered that book a few days ago ... should come soon.

What is your opinion of the 1912 posted above?
Do you think that would grade, or would it come back genuine not gradable, or is it just impossible to tell from a photo?

 

If that coin is an MPL, I would have to estimate PR-64 RB to PR-65 RB. Might even be a full Red. The details look good, as well as the rim. But I've seen many business strikes that have gotten the best of me.

 

Thanks for your feedback Coinguy. Yes, grading these coins is not easy.

My main concern is artifically re-toned (I think PCGS uses something called a sniffer to detect that).

 

I just took another look at your 1912. It's a good possibility that it could be re-toned from an old dip. It appears to be original though, because a dipped and re-toned coin will have a very bright appearance, but no luster. I still can't confirm that it is indeed an MPL. But there's one good sign; see that gouge above the "I" of IN on the obverse? I believe that is one of the die diagnostics. There's always a chance.

 

Hey thanks for looking at that 1912 in so much detail! I really appreciate it.

So you think there is a 50/50 chance this could get body bagged for artificial toning?

What's a body bagged Matte Proof worth? Maybe $400 to $600?

To my eye, the coin looks like a genuine Matte Proof, but I do have some question about the color. If it is artificially toned, I think whoever did it, did a nice job.

 

It looks fine to me. I don't see any evidence of cleaning. But the TPG's surprise us all the time. As a rule, I am at least a little suspicious about any valuable, scarce coin that is not in a respected TPG holder.

PCGS's Sniffer is routinely used on Secure Plus submissions, and only "as needed" on all other grading services. It detects specific substances/chemicals on the coin's surface.

The Sniffer may occasionally help PCGS wth an AT/NT call but its primary purpose is to weed out doctoring to enhance a coin's appearance or conceal flaws and weaknesses. So it sniffs for putty, skin oils, certain coin solutions, etc. The list of substances it detects is public (and a little gross).

Whether a coin is AT or NT is generally decided by the graders based on its appearance, the toning pattern and color progression, etc.
Lance.

 

@Liberty: I don't think your 1912 is AT. If it was, it would have a WACKY color pattern, practically almost every color in the rainbow on one side. From the picture, the coin appears to have no toning. I think if the coin has problems, it would be an old dip and re-toned. But as I said in my last post, the coin appears original.


A body bagged MPL varies in value, it really depends on what kind of problem it has and what date it is.

 

OK I took the plunge and bought this. The price was $1,375. There's a full 7-day money back return policy, so at least I get to examine the coin in hand before deciding if it's a keeper. I think I will drive it up to my local coin dealer and have them look it over when I get it in the mail (they've been in the business for 40 years and I trust them).



I know this is a bit of a risk, but honestly I thought the coin looked really nice (very clean) and I loved the brick red-brown color. I actually thought it looked TOO GOOD, which is why I thought it might be artificially toned. If it is re-toned, whoever did it did a nice job. If it comes back from PCGS as "Genuine, Not Gradable", I probably have maybe $700 of potential downside. But could have some good upside if PCGS grades it.

This was the original ad for the coin:



I am hoping for a grade of PF65RB with this (I think it has a shot), but have to keep the possibility of a Genuine details grade in mind. I asked the seller why it wasnt graded, and this is what the seller said:

"Thanks for your interest in my coins, and for asking all of these questions in advance. To help make sure I address every one of them, I'll answer them in order.

• I haven't sent this coin in for grading just because I don't feel like dealing with the headache. Every time I send a group of Lincolns in, it seems like I put out $300 and only a few of the coins grade out correctly. Then I have to send the rest back in again with another group to see PCGS grade them differently a second time around, still with at least half of the group having ridiculous results that often contradict the first opinion and make no sense to me. So a few years ago I just said the heck with it and decided to focus on mostly raw coins. I figure I can sell them for less than certified coins and let someone deal with getting them graded.
  
• One reason matte proof collectors like to buy them certified is because they want to make sure they are getting a matte proof and not a $50-$100 business strike. Many people cannot tell the difference themselves, and like to have the guarantee from a grading service. I happen to be one of the few dealers out there who actually use the microscopic diagnostics to identify matte proofs, rather than simply making the claim that "it must be one." These diagnostics--small areas of die polish and other mint-made imperfections--identify the proof dies and are definite evidence of a matte proof. These are the same diagnostics the people hired by grading services are taught to look for, and anyone can see them with proper magnification and lighting.
• If you bought the coin and submitted it to PCGS or any other grading service and it came back as a genuine matte proof, you are correct that it would not be returnable based on the grade or lack of a grade not meeting your expectations. I have no way of predicting or guaranteeing what PCGS will grade a given coin on a given day, and chances are it will grade 3 different ways if submitted 3 different times.
• I sell mostly raw coins. I usually have a slabbed coin or two in the mix. These are coins I received slabbed, since I don't deal with that process myself anymore.
• I have had this coin for about a year. I actually bought it from a gentleman from whom I bought one other 1912 matte proof. He was selling off coins that had been collected back in the 1940's and 1950's. The other 1912 was a rainbow toned one that ended up grading out as MS63 RB for my customer. It had a few spots and a large grainy area on the coin, and actually graded out about right. That shouldn't make for any guarantee that this one will also, but it should be nice to know.
• I'll also let you know that I personally think this coin is original. If I did not, I'd gladly mention it, as I did for the other 1912 MPL I have up for sale on my website. I don't like the idea of overgrading or hiding problems I am aware of. I want to have happy customers who come back and refer their friends, rather than trying to make a little more from one time sales. "
  

This stuff sure makes for an interesting drama! Thanks for all the feedback from coinguy and lkeigwin on this. I will let you all know what happens. Hopefully after all the false starts, this will be my first MPL.

 

OK, here are a couple of digital pictures of the 1909VDB. I really don't think it's an ordinary business strike.

 

That looks like an MPL to me, based on the broad flat rim. Nice coin! I like the toning/colors a lot

(I think you need better photos ... consider www.bluccphotos.com)

You have something unbelievably rare -- the key to the MPL series.
PCGS has graded 114 of these 1909VDB MPL coins
NGC has graded 52
So the total NGC/PCGS slabbled population is less than or equal to 166 (due to some of the counts being re-submissions)

This is a lower count that even the low mintage 1916, which has a slab population less than 266.

I already calculated the slab population of the 1912 (which is the middle of the pack in terms of scarcity) and it was less than 567.

 

.....and the free education continues. My oldest brother had a 1909 VDB Matte Proof - there was no doubt. He passed away and his coins were sold before I knew they were going to be sold.

 

So it appears the 1912 MPL I have on 7 day approval is a genuine Matte Proof.

I got the book "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs" by Kevin Flynn and he has photos of all the die dianostics for each date. Here is an excerpt for the diagnostics for the 1912 MPL. Note the listed item about the die scratch through the ERTY in LIBERTY and the photo:



And here is a magnified photo of the coin I bought:



Same die scratch, same position.
So at minimum this is a genuine MPL.

 

So now my only concern is has this coin been improperly cleaned at some point and then possibly artificially retoned -- the only reason I think that is I think the coin almost looks too good. The seller sent me some great detailed photos and my biggest concern are the hairlines below the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA on the reverse. I have seen these sort of hairlines in the past on "blessed" PCGS slabbed and graded coins -- so I am not entirely sure what they are. What could cause these sort of hairlines? (Could this be a sign of an old improper cleaning? Or are they die polish lines? Or something else?) I am not sure if these hairlines could cause this coin to get a PCGS Genuine grade or not.

If anyone has any opinions, feel free to post!

 

Thanks for sharing this one

WingLib:thumb:
Very nice photos sure make it look Nice!!! in hand & gloved I sure it looks 100% better!:thumb:
:kewl:

 

I took a couple more pictures of the coin.

 

The colors of that 1909 makes me think it's a Matte Proof as well. The rainbows are pretty common on MPLs. You should buy Kevin Flynn's book "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs" as it gives all the little die details to make identification 100% accurate.

 

Based on the last set of photos I'm voting 95% against it being a proof. The I couldn't identify any of the 1909 VDB proof obverse diagnostics in the photos. However, those are tough to see in photos unless you have the lighting just right, so that isn't the main reason for my vote against it being a proof. More telling is that the photos do not show any indication of the crescent shaped die chip that is found to the right of UNUM on the reverse. The photos are clear enough to where some indication of that die chip should be evident if the coin is a genuine 1909 VDB proof. Unfortunately, I see no such die chip where one should be.

WingedLiberty, while it's true that matte proofs are often found with wild color because of the sulfur-rich tissue paper the Mint issued proofs in during that era, there are many business strike coins that have plenty of colors. I have owned many many 1909 VDB business strike coins with very colorful toning, even some similar to Collector's coin. Remember, the a business strike coin and a proof coin both have the same composition. So if you put a nice red proof in a sulfur-rich tissue paper it'll tone up.... but so will a nice red business strike that has been placed in a cardboard album that has sulfur and other chemicals in the cardboard.

 

Good points illini.

 

But then again, there is this:

"As I brought the coin to my eye and began to view the coin's obverse with my 8X glass, I couldn't see any signs of die scratches running in front of and below the nose on this coin. I thought perhaps they were being hidden by the deep toning on the coin's surface. Next, I looked to see if I could find the die scratch that runs from the back of Lincoln's coat into the field and running up toward the right leg of the R of Liberty. Another "no show" for this die scratch."

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=6162&universeid=313&type=1