Haggling at coin shows and beyond

I never haggle to be honest i simply do my research and i usually go in with maximum i am willing to pay for a particular coin. If the price is too high i walk away. From my experience some of my worst buys have been as a result of haggling since most you feel pressured to accept a sellers' counter-offer.

 

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Lol, I would love to see such a bidder in a auction room. I have seen them in the past, and promptly drive up prices on them for it. The same is happening right now at ancient auctions. There is a certain bidder who when is in attendance people are bidding him up just for fun. He still wins the lots, but is paying through the nose for it since he is "known". To me, privacy is the best way to win auction lots, not bullying the crowd into silence.

Yeah, it backfires to, lol. I still have a few stupid lots I "won" while bidding someone up as well. Sometimes they just stop....

 

These bidders have plenty of $$ and want to win auctions primarily to get their name recognition and boost their egos'.

 

I've heard it said before that there is a fine line between being frugal and having control issues.

 

We're in agreement here, as I think all honest and fair men are.

From a "moral" perspective, it's only reasonable that two traders exchange value for value, and both walk away from the transaction having benefited.

Sure, there will be exceptions...both sides don't always do their homework. And I'm not ABOUT to do it for them. Nobody ever did my homework for me, nor should they.

But as a mindset going into a transaction, the only right and reasonable way to view things is to expect both sides to benefit.

The same is true as a practical, pragmatic matter, ethics and morals aside. As a buyer, it is in your best interest that a quality seller remain in business. He increases your access to the products you want, increases the area competition to sell those products (keeping your prices down), and provides a velocity to the money in your community.

Sure..you may occasionally get a good deal, or get one over on him (as he will you), the most beneficial approach in the long term is to expect, again, for both sides to benefit from the transaction.

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There's absolutely no reason to expect a seller to take less profit than he feels is necessary to remain in business.

There's also absolutely no reason to expect a buyer to pay more than he feels an item is worth.

if those two numbers can't meet, someone has erred in their assessment of the market...and, left to its own devices, the market will resolve that error by replacing him with someone who is more astute...on EITHER side of the equation.

 

I don't think there's a line at all...fine or otherwise. Frugality IS control...control of one's wealth.

Which, admittedly, is seen as "an issue" in today's day and age, but that's alright.

 

Please allow me to apologize first if this offends anyone, but the whole idea of "never paying retail" and feeling that you as a buyer have the right to always haggle on any and every coin is ludicrous. Hear me out on this and then decide. Coins are not cars, appliances, electronics, etc, etc and at least with earlier and/or less common issues, no two are alike. While you may be able to buy X car (same model, options, etc) at one dealer for less than another, coins are a whole different ballgame. Also, what do each of you view as retail and what as wholesale? If you are buying common types that can be readily had anywhere and at any time, by all means dicker away. If you are looking to buy a common date MS65 Morgan, a PQ coin can be found without a lot of effort at a great price, but say you are in the market for a truly rare coin - one that only comes on the market a few times per year or even less. Say this coin is graded at X yet is of superb quality and originality and priced at 25% over trends. Are you going to pull out your graysheet and think that doing so will intimidate the dealer or stick to the assumption that because you "dont' pay retail" you have the right to buy this coin for less than the true market will bear? How many of you realize that there are plenty of coins that are grossly undervalued even in the best known retail guides? One reason for this is because some coins trade so rarely, but also has anyone considered the fact that a price guide is just that.... a price GUIDE? I can think of a number of coins that I would bend over backwards to pay trends for and could easily flip at a great profit to knowledgeable collectors. Again, it all depends on what you collect/buy/deal in but knowing your market inside and out is the key. Understanding the fact that a truly PQ specimen in a certain issue can easily bring (and deserves) large premiums over the values listed in ANY guide can be more important that haggling. Understanding that a price guide really is nothing more than an educated guess and at best a sampling from a tiny percentage of past sales is of the utmost importance (depending on the type of coin). In reality guides mean nothing... the market dictates values/prices and it is as simple as that.

Again, this all depends on what the individual collects. If your interests are in a series that literally hundreds or thousands of coins are available at any given time and in any venue (online, Ebay, shows, shops, whatever), there is absolutely no reason not to dicker if the asking price is not right - there is always another similar coin around the corner. The thing is that with coins, not all are created equal and it is senseless to generalize. One who does not understand this is doing themselves a great disservice.

An honest dealer absolutely has a right to make a profit depending on the coin and as long as their price is market acceptable, even if its not what you want to pay. Maybe I'm simply getting old but I can remember a time when everyone did not believe that they deserve to buy "wholesale" and the coin mattered more than a price guide. Just my two cents.

 

Well there you have it.
Some (like me) enjoy the negotiating and some (like you) don't.
I go to a coin show expecting to haggle on 1 to 3 coins, TOPS.
There is a twice monthly show held near me and over the years I've gotten to know most of the sellers there.
Some are easier to bargain with than others and some are non-negotiators (I avoid them if possible).
I suspect some see me coming and deliberately quote me a higher price, knowing I will bargain with them!
It's all done good-naturedly on my part and I strive to leave a sellers table with both of us happy with the deal. If I don't buy something from a seller, I still want to leave the table with both of us happy.
I don't go to a show or a B&M with the expectation that I HAVE to buy something.
I like to schmooze with the sellers if they aren't busy. Most enjoy talking coins and other subjects when not pressed for time.

 

Do you take any kind of price guide with you?

 

Nobody here has asserted that you should haggle over any and every coin.

A dealer has the "right" to conduct business and TRY to make a profit.
If the dealer happens to pay too much for his stock, it's not up to the buyers to make up for his lack of perspicacity by paying too much for his wares.
The free market can be a cruel place but nobody ever said life was fair.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested they "deserve to buy wholesale", BB4C...

Indeed, I think most of us who haggle honor and respect the idea that the dealer has significant overhead and risk involved that warrant his ability to purchase coins at prices lower than we, as collectors can.

Put another way...if I want to pay, say, grey sheet bid for a coin, I absolutely have that right. All i need to do is amass a sizeable stock, open a shop, advertise my business, pay employees, attract and keep customers, spend every waking hour running down good buying opportunities, manage my inventory, manage my accounting and books, learn to grade well, develop an expert's knowledge in all manner of types and varieties, and follow all applicable local, state, and federal laws regarding the exchange and reporting of bullion, collectible, and currency trades and sales.

WHEW!

And I said above, and again I think hagglers agree...we absolutely recognize the dealer's right to MAKE a profit.

What I don't recognize is a dealer's right to DICTATE the market. The mere fact the dealer exists and has Coin X doesn't mean he gets to determine, by edict, that the coin is worth $1000.

He can ASK $1000 all he wants. And there's nothing wrong with him asking $1000 EVEN if he paid $100 for it. If he thinks he can make a 900% profit on a coin, by all means, more power to him.

He doesn't, however, get to grab a passer buy, and say "This coin is $1000. Buy it." and have it happen by his mere whim.

Perhaps the demand for the coin is high enough, and the coin is indeed rare enough, that some buyer considers the coin worth $1000. Great!

But I still get to decide if it's worth it to me. Does that mean I feel i have the right to haggle each and every coin? Absolutely I do! I have every right to tell that dealer I don't wish to pay $1000 for that coin...and he has every right to tell me to go pound sand, and find another buyer.

If he does, that doesn't even mean I was "wrong". Maybe I recognize the scarcity of the coin, and recognize that the market will indeed bear a $1000 price tag. So be it. That doesn't mean the coin has that value to me.

There's no moral or ethical basis to dictate to me I must purchase the coin at any given price. There's no moral or ethical basis to dictate the seller must sell it at any given price.

I absolutely have the right, however, to offer what I am willing to pay, and walk away if the coin isn't for sale at that price, regardless of whether that's "retail" or not.

 

What is really missing in these debates is real life case studies. When was the last time you were educated in role playing? Assertiveness training; Dale Carnegie course; sensitivity training. The only way to learn is by example, the most successful buyers and sellers are those who have learned from the best.

 

Eh...I probably did when I said I haggle or negotiate EVERYTHING.

I can't say I "win" every negotiation...indeed, I "lose" far more than I win, depending on how we define those terms.

What I can say with 100% certainty, however, is that it's been an extremely long time since I paid more for something than I thought it was worth.

That's not a negotiating skill so much as a change to personal behaviour...one frequently called "growing up" I think. :too-funny:

 

I bring a gray sheet, the Canadian Coin News (which has a trends section), a Red Book and Haxby's Coins Of Canada - all of which I leave in my car.
I have a pretty good idea of the values of Canadian coins (my specialty) but occasionally I trot out to the car to refresh my memory or check the value of an item I may be unfamiliar with.
I don't like the idea of whipping out a gray sheet at the dealer's table.
Then again, I don't like the dealer whipping out his gray sheet to quote a price. Either you know what you want for the coin or you are just wasting my time, IMO.

 

The bulk of my "recent" education in such things has come at poker tables.

Amazingly enough, the most successful people there are ALSO those that have learned from the best.

 

I agree. I don't know why, but I feel that's kind of...rude, for lack of a better term. Can't really explain it, just doesn't feel right to me.

I'm a bit more forgiving of dealers doing so, especially at shows...they handle tens of thousands of coins, see hundreds of people, and I can forgive them a bit if the brain gets a bit full, and they just want to be sure they're not overlooking something.

Having said that, a dealer who knows the series or coin off the top of his head DOES score a bit of an advantage with me in terms of appearing, at least, to be a bit more up to speed on his current holdings and the market for them.

 

In any transaction somebody is doing the buying and somebody is doing the selling, also one party is justifying and the other conceding. You're best bet at getting the best deal is to be as well or better educated and justify your position so the other party concedes theirs. Using this will get you the best results or at least better than uneducated buying.

 

Was at the Naugatuck show a few months ago, where a dealer had a 1901 $20 Liberty in MS65, old PCGS holder, Greysheet dropped in December on the coin. He was still holding out for $4600 though the damned thing is basically worth generic money, Heritage is not going to pay full sheet unless it were CAC'd, which IMO is unlikely, it has a blotchy toned look, coppery blotches, not toning spots per se. I offered him strong money, $4000 cash, he said no. I ended up buying a couple of raw $20s that both graded MS63 CAC for $1675 a piece. I was taking the risk with those since they were uncertified.

 

Very good post sir. It gets back to my point that it depends. I know everyone wants a deal and wants to pay wholesale. The nasty little secret is those who insist on paying below book will usually get substandard coins. Book value is an average, and many coins are sold above book. These aren't always to idiots, but superior coins in terms of condition and beauty regularly bring book value plus.

Now, if a person negotiates down from $325 to $275 on a coin with a book value of $200, (but it is a superb coin), then fine. I just didn't want people to think negotiating down to below book was the goal of all numismatic purchases. If they get into that mindset, then in many collecting areas all you will be able to purchase will be substandard coins.

Chris

 

A very valid point, I think.

And I think it bears clarification that, for ME at least, negotiation isn't necessarily about getting the price to fall within some range in a guide or book...it's about getting the price to fall within some range of my level of enjoyment.

A given coin, with a particular look, representing some level of challenge to find in that condition, or being some necessary coin in some set, is going to have a certain value to me. It's going to bring me some level of enjoyment of ownership, that I can express in dollars. I negotiate to get that coin at that price.

Sometimes I think the coin is "worth" less than the market seems to think...so I try to find one that is, if one were to check, "below book value". Maybe it's a substandard coin, maybe I get lucky...whatever. A well struck 1604 Flaming Buzzard just isn't worth $1000 to me. I'm fine with a weakly struck 1605 Flaming Buzzard for $200...even if it means it won't appreciate the way the finer example might have.

On the other side, for quite some time now, I'd been after a particular coin...with a particular look...that I'd been unable to find. A local dealer, who I trust to recognize my preferred look in that series, found a wonderful coin at a show I'd never have attended. He returned with it, gave me a call, and asked for a steep premium over "book value".

We negotiated, and wound up what I'd call "considerably" above "book value" for the coin, but at a number that gave him a fair profit for his time and efforts, and fell below what I'd put aside to spend for the coin.

Everyone walked away happy. He pocketed a well earned profit, and I went home with a coin for less than I'd been prepared to spend if necessary. The "book value" didn't really enter in to it, in my opinion. Admittedly, it was, as others have suggested, perhaps a starting point...but the negotiation wasn't based on anyone trying to "get one over" on anyone else.

I figure the dealer had a bracket of profit he was willing to make. He'd LIKE $A, and will take no LESS than $B. I had a bracket of prices the coin was worth to me...I'd LOVE to pay $C, but was WILLING to pay as much as $D.

Happily, in this case, we found a place where our brackets overlapped.