Fake Rainbow Toned Coins - Artificial Colors

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by JimMayor007, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    That's a bit over the top, and I'm not sure I agree. The TPGs do a very good job, IMO, of weeding out the obvious AT coins, and even many of the professionally-done ones. Your underlying point -- even if you did exaggerate just a smidge -- is that many get past them, and with that I agree.

    However, the TPGs choose to ignore other coins that they 100% know are AT under the guise of "market acceptability" -- yet NOWHERE do they admit to this practice (which is one of my biggest complaints against the TPGs -- they should just be honest).
     
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  3. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Mike, you're a real diplomat. When I exaggerate, though, I like to exaggerate. Exaggerating just a smidge, I believe, is counter-productive. ;)

    Uh, well, I'm not sure about that. First-off, they can't even define AT. We can't even define it. And, Heaven knows, we've tried. "Market acceptability" is their cop-out, because they can't define it. They can't define it, they can't identify it. That's how I have them. "Market acceptability" means there's a market out there for the coin, as "toned," that's all. And, of course, a "toned" coin has to be pretty darn bad, to flunk that standard.

    Sometimes, I think, I have more respect for outfits like ICG, which at least have the courage to go on the line with their reputations, and offer an opinion on the toning.
     
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You got it, and that's as far as anyone can go. And that has always made me ask the question - if you can't tell for sure, does it matter ?

    Somehow that question always seems to get ignored.
     
  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I'll turn that around a bit....

    Would you be disappointed to find out that the $2M Monet you just bought was a contemporary copy and worth $1M?

    Would you be disappointed to find out that the new auto parts your mechanic installed in your vehicle were in fact used/remanufactured?

    To me at least, the point is that deception in the name of profit should not be rewarded -- even if it is beyond the purview of most consumers to tell the difference.

    BOTTOM LINE: Most people pay good money for attractively toned slabbed coins because they believe they are natural. In many cases, they have been duped (or they duped themselves), and that's not right however you slice it (and IMO).

    That's not to say I don't understand and respect your opinion -- far from it -- but rather to say I just don't agree with the underlying logic and what it enables for the less than forthright among us (and what would happen to all those coins that would be "fair game" if the numismatic community shared your view).

    Respectfully...Mike
     
  6. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    No worries. :thumb: As an (anal?) engineer/scientist by education who very often gets involved with lawyers/contracts/negotiations in my vocation -- I try and choose my words carefully and sometimes forget that others don't share that perspective. :)
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    You bet I would. One big difference in your comparisons though - you are presupposing that you can prove the painting is fake. And while I have no doubt that the painting can be proved fake - it cannot be proved that the coin is AT. In many cases at least. You and I both know that in some cases it can be proved.
     
  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Mike,

    I understand your point about the consumers being duped, but I don't think your analogies are accurate. After all, the chemical composition of the toning on an AT coin is the same as the chemical composition of the toning on an NT coin. The only difference is how long it took that silver sulfide layer to form.

    I am looking at a rainbow toned 1945-D NGC MS66 Jefferson Nickel that came in the mail today. I have no idea whether the toning is AT or NT and I am positive that I will never know. For that matter, nobody will ever know for sure, even the foremost experts on toning. So if one of them claims the coin to be AT, why should that opinion affect the value of the coin. The reason it does is because we have been brainwashed into believing that artificial toning is always a bad thing, even if it increases the eye appeal of the coin tremendously.

    I understand the desire for originality from a collector standpoint, but when dealing with an area that the originality can't be determined with any degree of certainty, does it really matter?

    I agree that the TPG's unwritten practice of slabbing market acceptable coins does not serve the general public well at all. I have already stated my plan for the TPG's to eliminate this problem. But in reality, my solution is just a different dog with different fleas.

    Anyway, here is the 1945-D Jefferson I am looking at. Who can tell me if this toning is NT or AT, I can't.

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  9. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Paul (and GDJMSP),

    I agree. My analogies weren't 100% accurate -- that's a fair criticism, IMO -- but they weren't intended to be....

    They were made to illustrate the underlying point that deception shouldn't be used as a sales tactic. When selling it should be the goal of the salesman to make his value statement to his client truthful. Just be honest. Unfortunately, we have come to a point in our capitalistic history that honesty is not the best policy in many people's minds -- and they let profit get ahead of being truthful. While I can certainly understand the motivation for such actions, I choose to not subscribe to that credo. Perhaps I'm just an idealist, or a holdback from another time, but I truly believe that if you have to lie to someone to sell something, you shouldn't have been trying to sell them in the first place. Said another way, there's no price tag attached to my integrity.

    So to me, the truth always matters, even if it is not readily obvious (or even determinable) where the truth lies. I fully realize the slippery slope that I've put myself on, but I like it much better than the other side of the fence that justifies deception for profit.

    As for the (very pretty) war nickel in question, I'd label your coin 100% QT and leave it at that -- it's not a no-brainer NT coin and it's not a no-brainer AT coin. It lies somewhere on the AT side of the middle in my eyes (and I'll wager it is (not coincidentally) in an NGC holder as well ;) ).

    Respectfully...Mike
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Mike after all these years I think you know where I stand on the point of honesty and ethics. You should also know quite well my feelings about what defines AT from NT, I've posted about it enough times.

    However, the point remains - if even the foremost expert or group of experts cannot tell for sure if a coin is AT or NT - then does it matter ? And no, I am not including QT - to me QT is AT end of story.
     
  11. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Gosh 900 I never thought of that but I guess you could , but they'd probabl;y turn out ugly .
    rzage:whistle:
     
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The debate between terminology is futile. All my plan does is give NGC and PCGS a way out of the corner they have painted themselves into. NGC painted themselves into the same corner when they stated publicly that they would never grade and encapsulate modern coins. Their customer base made them change their position. Both PCGS and NGC publicly state that they will not encapsulate coins that are questionably toned. PCGS writes in THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION "PCGS realizes this is a tough area and when there is doubt, the correct solution is to not grade the coin. Although, there can be legitimate disagreements over some color and toning, when a coin is absolutely origninal there is no question about the color of the toning. By not putting questionably toned coins in holders, PCGS ensures that the "coin doctors" are less likely to attempt their trade."

    Essentially, this is a really delicate way of saying they know they can't always tell the difference and the will only grade the coin if they are absolutely sure. Then they turn around and use an unwritten policy of grading and encapsulating what they deem "market acceptable". Because both TPG's have done this, they are in a difficult situation. My solution allows them to keep face and follow their original public policy. The problem then becomes, what about all of the coins graded prior to the policy change? Like I said, different dog with different fleas.

    But IMO, it is better than what they are doing now which is as Mike pointed out, is deceitful. I say slab em all, and slap a QT tag on any coin that even remotely looks suspicious. After all, if PCGS statement " when a coin is absolutely origninal there is no question about the color of the toning" is true, then there is no reason my solution won't work.

    The fear that the coin doctors will be enboldened is moot because they will have the QT designation to deal with. Collectors like myself willl be happy because then we can collect QT coins to our hearts delight without the risk of financial ruin at a later date because what was once "market acceptable" is now considered AT. The originality collectors can avoid the QT coins all together, and the TPG's make more money. It is a win-win all the way around.
     
  13. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Lehigh , if they start putting QT on their slabs , I think it would kill the market for these coins , I know I wouldn't want a coin with a QT mark on its slab , also I think it would start turning the people like me who like NT coins away from them , If the pros can't tell the difference how can I .
    rzage
     
  14. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I do know your perspective on those issues, and please don't get the wrong idea.... My preceding post was not an indictment of your ethics/morals, but rather what I think will happen to the coin market if the (completely rational and ethical) position you take were to be widely subscribed to.

    However, now that I think about it a bit more, perhaps we can strike a balance where it doesn't matter and the coins are valued the same. Although I think the toned coin market overall (to include the NT coins) would suffer -- perhaps a bit of a pullback as the market digests this realization would occur. Or perhaps I'm dead wrong and it's already factored into the market pricing on these coins (although the rate that the TPGs award "bonus" points for color leads me to believe that it may not be true).

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but originality does matter to me -- even if the duplicate can't be distinguished from the original. To use a hypothetical (which I hope is a bit more applicable than the last one):

    If you placed two coins on a table that looked exactly the same, and told me which was which, I would choose the NT coin every time. If you asked me to place a value on each coin, I would value the NT coin higher.

    Now, if you placed two coins on the table and didn't tell me which was which and asked me to pick a coin, I would hesitate and I might even choose neither. Even more to the point, if you asked me to place a value on the coins, I would respond with a lower value than the preceeding example.

    That's just how I feel -- I want the real thing -- and I can't help it. :)

    Respectfully...Mike
     
  15. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    You are too kind. It's a flat out lie that borders on fraudulent in my mind, and it is the dirty little secret of toned coins in TPG holders.

    All IMHO and based on my experiences...Mike
     
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    This will probably be the first and last time I ever quote this mantra from the coin collecting world "buy the coin, not the plastic." There will be plenty of toning enthusiasts who will line up to buy certain coins slabbed with the QT designation. I know that I am a little radical, but I am not the only collector of toned coins who does not insist on a 100% guarantee of NT when I buy a toned coin. It is factual that there are many QT coins that are very attractive. The coins will find there own place in the market. Perhaps they will only be worth wholesale price for their assigned grade and the perceived ridiculous premiums that exist currently will disappear. For example, the TPG would have to put a QT on all of the Appalachian Jeffersons. It is widely accepted presently that these coins are AT yet they still fetch 10X+ wholesale value at auction. Why? Because they are gorgeous.

    Most collectors interested in toning have seen the rather poorly produced video featuring Bob Campbell, who is considered one of the leading authorities on toning in the numismatic world. Bob mentions the Appalachian Jeffersons in this video (although not by name) and declares them AT. IMO, attractive toned coins, even attractive AT coins have and will continue to have a place in the market.

    In response to your last question, "if the pros can't tell the difference how can I", I will respond with my own question. If the pros can't tell, does it really matter at all? The QT designation would not mean AT, it would only mean we have no idea.
     
  17. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Mike,

    I agree that I was a little diplomatic in my assessment and that you are completely right. However, I believe that you and I are partially at fault. We are part of a collector group that knows this information and yet we allow it continue without any real effort to stop it. I can't speak for you, but I know that I have never complained to PCGS or NGC about this practice and have never shared my solution to the problem with them. I simply whine about it on forums like this. I feel strangely complicit in this ongoing scheme of deception. My leniency towards the TPG's is probably an attempt to avoid an indictment of myself.

    Paul
     
  18. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I agree, and I (and others) have tried complaining to PCGS/NGC directly and it has gotten me (us) nowhere. So I'm not sure what I could do other than jump on the soapbox every chance I get (it usually doesn't take much prodding for me to go on a rant ;) ) -- as I think that education is the key. :)
     
  19. I sure am glad I bumped this thread! ;)
     
  20. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Me too, and despite our prior run-ins, I'm glad you joined over here too. :)
     
  21. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    In that case Mike, I applaud your efforts. I am not a leader in that regard. Put simply, I am just too lazy. I usually find myself thinking of what my next hand will be and hoping it is pocket aces rather than participating in more noble pursuits like righting the wrongs in the world, even if only in the numismatic world.

    But if you ever decide to escalate your case with the TPG's and need support, you only need to ask as we are in complete agreement about how despicable their current policy on this issue is.

    BTW, I just re-read this entire thread and I think it may be one of the most informative I have ever read on Cointalk. I am nominating this thread for TOTW.
     
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