1954-S Toned Franklin Half – Guess its grade before submittal to PCGS

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Glenn5691, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    Unless you are planning on selling it, send it to NGC.
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  3. Merc Crazy

    Merc Crazy Bumbling numismatic fool

    66 no fbl.

    EDIT: Just saw it got QC. That sucks.
  4. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Yeah, if they bagged you Franklin for QT, I am thinking they will probably bag that coin as well. While I find that color of blue attractive, my experience is that the TPG's don't like it very much. I remember another CT member with a very similar situation with coins that looked very similar to that quarter that came from a 58-D mint set. I remember they got bagged upon first submission, but I don't remember the end result.
  5. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

  6. I for one can see no need for gradeing by these companys.
    Seems if you send it in and dont like the grade of the coin then just send it to others until you reach a grade you like.
    In the mean time these companys are getting rich off of your wants for a better grade.
    After you get the grade you want do you feel the coin is worth what it graded because you had to send it more than once and its first grade has to be in your mind.
    To me it is a waste of time and money.
  7. Glenn5691

    Glenn5691 New Member


    There have been comments about toning on here and that the way my parents put these in the attic was environmental damage. Storing in mint bags exposed to the chemicals in the bags sitting in humid environments caused all those Morgans out there and other coins to develop toning. Coins in rolls which developed toning can also be categorized as improper storage. Coin album companies sold coin books to people saying they could store their coins in there to keep them safe. Do we all have a class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of coin books for the so called damage they have caused?

    Should we now deem all toned coins environmental damage because they were not stored properly? When you look at the reason coins tone it all comes down to tarnish on a coin with some being more beautiful then others. Shall we recall all battle creek Morgans and code 91 "questionable color" and have the TPG's refund the lavish prices paid for these coins? Where do we draw the line?
  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    There is a fundamental difference. The storage of silver dollars in canvas bags in bank vaults was an acceptable means to store coins. Furthermore, the toning patterns created by such storage is well documented and expected. When the TPG's see a Morgan Dollar with toning that fits the mold for typical patterns and color schemes found on bag toned Morgans, they will be very likely to grade the coin. Likewise, placing coins in coin albums is an acceptable method of coin storage and those albums again produce predictable color schemes and toning patterns. Unfortunately, your parents attic is not an accepted method of coin storage and the TPG's have no way to predict the toning patterns caused by prolonged exposure to that attic. So while the resultant toning happened naturally, the color scheme is not similar to anything that is predictable from proper storage methods. Therefore the toning is deemed questionable yielding a problem coin.

    You have to remember that this is not a simple issue. The TPG's have to balance two competing factors. They can't simply grade every toned coin because the market demands originality and does not want AT coins included. Likewise, they can't not grade every toned coin because the market doesn't want naturally toned coins punished. A great many collectors love toned coins and want their toned coins graded. They just don't want to be duped and end up with an AT coin. But the line between AT & NT is so impossible to determine that their task is impossible. Their solution is actually genius in my eyes. They grade coins that they deem to be market acceptable. Now you are saying "what the heck does that mean". Well think of it like this. There are coins that almost every collector can identify as AT. There are also coins that almost every collector can identify as NT. If we put the AT on the far left and NT on the far right, the coins in the middle are the ones that the TPG must decide are market acceptable or not. The result is a toning scale that would look something like this.

    [​IMG]

    The closer you get to the middle of the scale, the tougher the TPG decision gets. So lets look at some larger photos of the scale.

    [​IMG]

    The coin at the far left is obviously the result of artificial toning and basically looks radioactive in hand. The second coin in which is described as questionable toning has what appears to be a proper color progression but if you saw the coin in hand you would immediately be struck with the feeling that something is wrong. When that feeling strikes, the TPG's should always err on the side of caution and body bag the coin. The third coin is where it gets tough. This coin resides in an NGC holder and is extremely attractive. However, I would never ever ever crack this coin out because I have serious doubts that it would ever get back into a slab. The TPG deemed the coin MA but could just have easily bagged it for questionable toning. Now the right hand side of the scale.



    [​IMG]

    Continuing with the first coin on the left, this coin resides in an NGC slab an shows very vibrant colorful toning but the pattern is recognized as album toning so it is currently considered MA. The next coin under widely accepted shows a similar pattern as it is also album toned but the colors are less dramatic and more commonly encountered. Finally the coin on the far right is an example of quintessential album toning with sandy peripheries and thin bands of rainbow target toning. When the TPG's see this toning, they will almost always consider it NT/MA.

    If you think of toning in terms of a scale like this and then evaluate where your coin falls on that scale, you will be much less surprised and upset about the TPG result. Looking at your Washington Quarter, where on the scale would you place it? IMO, it would fall in the Borderline QT/MA category. I could see it getting graded or bagged. I could even see a different result if submitted several times.

    I would like to point out that this is my own personal method of explaining the concept of market acceptability and is not a standard recognized by the TPG's. I use this as a teaching tool. If you have any questions, I will be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
  9. Glenn5691

    Glenn5691 New Member

    Lehigh,

    Excellent post you gave and it explains a lot about the logic that they use and of course they have to look out for people artificially toning a coin. The last couple months I have been studying pictures of slabbed toned coins and every type of coin tones differently. Your example uses the nickel as a reference but I have seen many quarters look like my example but have not seen a Franklin like mine as all seem to look splotchy. Mine is a freak of nature admittedly and have not seen a specimen like it but I have seen some that come close as in the colors.

    I would love to pick your brain at some point and share with you pictures of coins I have if you are open to that? I'm still a newbie at this but it really breaks my heart thinking that many treasures my grandmother left me will be deemed AT because their colors may not perfectly match their expected pattern. In all this has just fueled a fire inside of me to learn more about this subject and thanks to people like you it will make all of us wiser.

    Thanks
  10. Glenn5691

    Glenn5691 New Member

    Found this PCGS certified Franklin that exhibits the same blue band but completely toned central section. Mine isn't that much of a freak after all. And here is a link to one that in my opinion screams AT http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=31&lot=315&lang=1

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there can be exceptions to the rule but I truly do understand the TPG intents.

    lf.jpg
  11. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 Pro amore Morgan pupa

    Lehigh, excellent post. I like the scale--it kind of puts toning into perspective, as far as what the TPG standard are. Thanks for that valuable information!
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Glenn,

    You have to accept that sometimes the TPG's will make a mistake. AT coins will end up graded and NT coins will get bagged, it is unavoidable. BTW, I think you should read the thread linked below. It is one of the best threads on this topic in the history of Cointalk. One warning, it is very long!

    Why did NGC bag the coin as AT?

    Post #52 is specifically relevant to your situation.

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