1672 Klippe 25 Stuivers Siege Coinage

Discussion in 'World & Ancient Coins' started by areich, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    What do you guys think of this as a purchase?


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    [TD]Netherlands/Groningen[/TD]
    [TD]1672 Klippe 25 Stuivers Siege Coinage[/TD]
    [TD]NGC[/TD]
    [TD]AU58[/TD]
    [TD]Rare quality, light gold and olive toning.[/TD]
    [TD]$895[/TD]
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  3. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector Moderator

  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It is a nice coin Amanda and an interesting piece. It is however not particularly scarce and I would say it is over-priced to say the least. It is also over-graded, which is why the price is what it is. Honestly, I would grade that at high VF.

    And just so you know, that 12/12 that Christian linked to that sold for about $300 5 years ago, they still sell for about $300 today.
  5. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    :rolleyes: I like it. Have you seen the Dutch jetons of the same period. Very entertaining.
  6. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    Interesting. It is in an NCG slab. AU58 is a long way to VF.
  7. areich

    areich America*s Darling

  8. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    Hello

    Yes - I've seen those. I'm actually looking for something rather specific that rflects my area of studies and career.

    Amanda
  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan New Member

    I love klippes! Siege coinage is historically fascinating, too. :thumb:

    Hey, areich- nice to see you again. I am really looking forward to our "fossils for Greek coins" trade over on the FORVM site. (Shipped your fossils the other day.) I only just started posting here, though I joined in 2007. Most of my time has been spent on Collectors Universe.

    This is my only klippe. It is one of my favorites on my trademark "Holey Coin Vest". I love the little boy with the stick horse- what a whimsical design!

    [​IMG]
  10. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    I think I'm not that many

    How about this one? Also over priced?

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    [TD]Netherlands/Holland[/TD]
    [TD]1611 Lion Daalder Dav-4858[/TD]
    [TD]NGC[/TD]
    [TD]VF30[/TD]
    [TD]A nice example of this popular type known as the dog or lion dollar, which saw circulation in the early North American colonies. These pieces are often weakly struck or show corrosion, due to the low-grade silver used for planchets.[/TD]
    [TD]$369[/TD]
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  11. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    I don't see any American based dealers on these kinds of coins.
  12. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector Moderator

    But that design makes a lot of sense. :) You may know that the Thirty Years War ended in 1648 (Westphalian Peace) but that various negotiations and treaties followed. Well, legend has it that, shortly before the Osnabrück agreement was signed, several boys appeared in front of the city hall, on their hobby horses, and that amused the delegations.

    In Osnabrück, one of the two Westphalian Peace cities, they have an annual Steckenpferdreiten (hobby horse riding) parade, mostly with fourth graders. The first parade was in 1948, fairly shortly after WW2 and on the 300th anniversary of the 1648 peace.

    Some of the negotiations that followed the basic peace agreement were in Nürnberg, in 1649-50. Now whether little boys approached Emperor Ferdinand's delegation or not ... hard to tell. But it seems they asked the delegation, particularly Piccolomini, for a peace souvenir, and were "awarded" such hobby horse klippes.

    Christian
  13. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector Moderator

    Mandy, I cannot tell whether that 1611 coin is overpriced or not (maybe Doug knows?) but it sure is a fine piece. But would that meet your criteria? It was minted a long time before the 1672 "rampjaar". Now the Dutch mint has this medal which commemorates the siege ...

    Christian
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Amanda, if that Lion dollar suits your purposes I would agree that it is fairly priced. It does however have some corrosion pitting and for me that would be enough to make me pass. They are not uncommon and problem free examples can be found with a little patience for about the same money.

    And I must say, I am surprised, but quite pleased, to see that all too familiar top hat and vest ;) It's been a long time !
  15. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    Well, I can't seem to find a decent deal of these in America
  16. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    True, but I also wanted Gilder such as Rembrandt used to buy his home.
  17. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan New Member

    Thanks! I know a little bit more about European and world history than your average American (mostly thanks to numismatics), and I had some very vague notion of the Thirty Years' War, but I'd never heard that story! Fascinating!
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Do you mean you can't many examples of those coins ? Or do you mean you can't find a coin you like that is fairly priced ?
  19. JeromeLS

    JeromeLS Coin Fanatic

    Concur with GDJMSP, this is over-graded and overpriced. A nearly uncirculated example would not exhibit so many hairline scratches on the reverse. It's more like about extremely fine with mint lustre. I would buy it raw for $600 or so.
  20. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    Back to the coin in question:

    The year 1672 is very important in Dutch history. By 1672, the English under King Charles II joined the French in attacking the Dutch.


    1674F.jpg
    (England's Charles II: the Merry Monarch known for being randy and for scheming with the French.)


    The English had hoped to settle the score for past humiliating defeats to the Dutch and to gain important access to Dutch trade and ports. Also, Charles II was receiving secret payments from the French King Louis XIV.

    It was Dutchman William III of Orange who helped manage a victory over the French Armies and relieved the sieges of several Dutch cities, including the city of Groningen of your coin.

    It was the same William III who later became King of England (1688) along with Charles’ niece Mary who became queen.


    W&M c0.jpg
    (William III and his wife Mary. William and his wife usurped the throne from Mary's father James II. James II was the autocratic and overtly Catholic younger brother of Charles II who was was shrewder than James and only made a deathbed conversion to Catholicism. Although the Dutchman William III became king of England, his first love was always the Netherlands.)


    To add to the confusion, the Dutch and France were earlier allies against the Spanish during the Thirty Years’ War (1618-1648). By the 1680s the Dutch had joined the Spanish (and anyone-else-willing) in an alliance against the French.

    On the subject of your coin, I think it is a fair price for a 25 Stuivers of its grade. (Check heritage.com to see a price comparison: A 1672 25 Stuvier XF 45 sold for $747 on Apr 16, 2011)

    Those who are commenting on your coin's grade might not be aware that this is emergency coinage struck during a siege. Much of the irregularities seen are from the coin planchet defect or the minting with hastily produced dies and not circulation. (Hey, I learned that from you people here at coin.talk. :biggrin:)

    I think it is a very nice specimen and a great piece of history.

    Good stuff.

    guy

    This coin sold for $506 :

    http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=59&lot=3975&lang=1
  21. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    Hello

    So now I'm confused.

    first, was the coin actually minted during the seize or afterward as a commemoration? Secondly the valuation on the Goldberg site is about $400. Is the one I looked at a good bye or over valued?

    Lastly, who is a reliable dealer of these in the US.

    Amanda

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