iaanr

I am essentially just starting out in the hobby having been off since childhood. I did a search on ebay on here and was startled how many fakes are out there these days (or at least posts calling a coin fake).

Is there any reference or other education material out there that I can use to keep from getting burned?

Iaanr

coinman0456

As you are new and inexperienced the best advice I would like to offer you is to spend your money on numismatic literature first, before you go buying coins. Even if it is a five or ten dollar coin, instead put that money to work learning about numismatics. There are many great books and periodicals you can purchase to facilitate your knowledge.

There is not one book that is going to teach you everything you need. It simply comes with becoming familiar with the issue.

First determine your specific interest of issue and denomination. Than start researching, and buying some good reference books.

Try getting this one first. Walter Breens Encyclopedia of coins. Filled with lots of good reading, information and photos of coins. Keep coming back here, and ask questions.

Tom

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texmech

I would also so an exhaustive search for threads on this forum where fakes/counterfiets are discussed and debated.

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Texmech

coinman0456

The best way to become adept at recognizing counterfeits, is simply become knowledgeable as to what the real coin is, and that takes a lifetime. Even the most "expert" collectors have been fooled by some truly good counterfeits.

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texmech

That's the part that truely amazes me when the "experts" discuss those points. That's why it helps to sometimes focus on one coin series and become familair with it.

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Texmech

Ardatirion

I disagree, if you focus on a single area then your knowledge will be limited to that area and you'll be worthless outside it. The key to counterfeit detection is to know and recognize how counterfeits are made and how that differs from genuine coins. Granted, a knowledge of a specific series is important, particularly for high quality fakes. But if you understand the production methods and their artifacts, then you'll be able to catch 95% of the fakes out there.

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My Ancient Coin Collection

GoldCoinLover

Here's a thread I wrote on the subject, it may help you:
http://www.cointalk.com/t56522/

You may also want to read this thread I made, its about alterations of coins (removing/adding mintmarks, etc)\
http://www.cointalk.com/t70426/

It is both important to know what a genuine coin looks like, and how both the counterfeit and genuine coins are made.
A good book to learn this better would be Numismatic Forgery by Charles Larson
This book is more of a 'cook book' on how counterfeits are made but it also goes over history of the minting process for genuine coins which is very useful.
http://www.amazon.com/Numismatic-For.../dp/0974237124

Some other good books:
http://koinpro.tripod.com/Books/DetC...dBookOffer.htm
I bought this book recently directly from Ken Potter.
It was a special where you order Strike it Rich with pocket change and get this counterfeit detection book free.
This book has a brief introduction and then goes over many examples of counterfeit gold coins with pictures to give you an idea of what to look for.


http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide.../dp/0375720502
This book is made by PCGS and is EXCELLENT for both grading and understanding counterfeits by knowing what a genuine coin should look like.
This book focuses on more what geniune coins look like so anything that isn't looks suspect. Where as the next book focuses on what counterfeits look like. I recommend getting both so you have 2 sides of the spectrum.

http://www.whitmanbooks.com/Default....tID=0794820077
This book is by far my favorite book on counterfeit detection. It goes in depth and shows many examples.
I can't recommend it enough! Re-read it!

Finally, please read this thread that a fellow member and very knowledgeable member wrote, TheLostDutchMan, or Matt.
He posted a thread which he found gold counterfeit coins and they are all very deceptive. I thought I was pretty good at detecting them until I saw that thread!
http://www.cointalk.com/t71113-7/

Also, I don't know if you can but try and take a class on the subject. You will learn alot and get to examine counterfeit gold coins, lots of them. I took the Conservation, Grading and authentication class at the ANA's show in phoenix last year. The authentication part was only 1 day (8 hours) but I learned alot and best of all got to examine lots of counterfeit US Gold coins. It was a great learning experience. Even better, try and take the 2 week counterfeit detection course in colorado springs CO in the summer seminiar. I'm saving up money for it and hope to take it next year. Just imagine how much you will learn from that!

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1834 Breen-6138. No Motto, Small Head style. (Small head variety)
NGC AU53/CAC $2.50 classic head
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...4labelcomp.jpg

yakpoo

Excellent Information!

GDJMSP

What he said

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coinman0456

I don't totally disagree. Keeping in mind though, I believe that we are trying to assist someone who has very limited knowledge of Coins, the minting process ( which I too continue to learn about ) and counterfeit making.

For someone very new to numismatics, attempting to comprehend the ART OF COUNTERFEITING may be overwhelming without a good basic knowledge of the history of our Coinage and Mints. Now I am by far no expert in counterfeit detection, and I do rely on some the aforementioned reference materials myself.

You say potatoe, and I say po ta toe. I wholeheartedly agree, that if affordable to this Youngster to coin collecting, a seminar in numismatics is an excellent suggestion. As you stated, both our suggestions have their merits.

Tom.

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iaanr

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. It seemed very discouraging at first, but it looks like forgery detection is a big part of the hobby and perhaps as interesting as collecting the original coins. I'll be ordering some books this weekend and doing lots of reading. A class would be nice, but I'll have to make some time. Any more advice is appreciated.

coinman0456

Welcome to CT and thanks for asking for suggestions. Please come back often, and tell us about what you are reading and learning. Tom.

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Vess1

I believe there are several different levels of quality when it comes to fakes. And there are several different levels of collector experience that will be able to spot any one of those levels.

The first level would be the obvious fakes out there. There are some that are so obvious that everybody here should be able to spot one immediately. It still takes experience. It may be a really bad color. It may be a feature that's obviously wrong. Or too big or too small, but obvious.

The next level would be examples that are not so obvious. At first glance to even an experienced collector, they may pass as real. Nothing is obviously wrong. But there may be one or several very minor, hard to see issues that give it away. But you really have to look hard. Such as a grainy surface from casting, which can be impossible to see in a picture and hard to see in hand by the naked eye. A small spike coming from the denticles. Maybe some of the reeding in the reeded edge isn't perfect. Maybe tool marks or a minor piece of raised metal on the surface.

Most will have at least some minor problem as it's not easy to create fakes as perfect as the originals, from new dies or castings. But it is easy to create something very similar that will fool most.

The next level would be examples like the Morgans we saw from the 'legal' Chinese counterfeiting ring. The reeded edges looked perfect. No obvious problems. Metal content may be exactly as the originals. Possibly no flaws. Will fool even the most knowledgeable collector and dealer. These are the most dangerous. Weights and diameters may be correct.

All I can say is try to get to know the average color by looking at real ones. Get a good caliper. I have a digital one that measures in english or metric. Also, get a digital scale. Real ones will have some variances in weight from the standard most of the time. Sometimes a lot of variance if they're heavily worn. But a MS, unworn coin that is well underweight, and out of mint tolerances should raise red flags. As an example.

I bought some fake buffalo nickels one time. The diameter of my real ones were within 0.01 mm. No exceptions. The fakes were 0.15 mm larger in diameter. Still very hard to tell by the naked eye but a relatively huge, and obvious difference.

There are some really good Morgan fakes out there. That would be a good series to study because there are a lot of fakes. The Chinese are still legally producing them today. There was an article in Coinage that said a guy did an experiment with a set of uncirculated Morgan fakes. He had a dealer at a show offer $30k for the set before telling him they were all fakes.

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borgovan

I highly recommend "The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection" by PCGS.

The majority of the book focuses on grading, but the last 100 pages or so are an excellent introductory text to counterfeits.

GoldCoinLover

I have to agree with you on most parts but wanted to add one thing -
Often times some poor chinese counterfeits you can simply do a 'ring' test as they do not use the right alloy of metal. Often times it won't "ring" right, like a silver coin should.

Also I wanted to say often times though on gold coins, they were often made in the middle east and can be very deceptive, so much so that often times you can't tell its counterfeit with just a digital scale or calipers, they are often the correct fineness, weight and within mint tolerances. But you can usually spot them by sometimes they are off color, spikes, tooling, repeating depressions, pitting, and loss of detail from the transfer process.

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1834 Breen-6138. No Motto, Small Head style. (Small head variety)
NGC AU53/CAC $2.50 classic head
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...4labelcomp.jpg