1834 Large Cent,...Trick...or Treat? - Page 2

mark_h · 10-30-2009, 07:27 PM

Yep can't wait to see pictures from you. Looks like nice details and besides the color the only other thing I noticed was the hits on the reverse on the rim. Still I can't wait to see your pictures.

ksparrow · 10-31-2009, 08:53 AM

I'd like to comment on the pictures (not the coin they represent, obviously)

The color looks off, even on the corrected version, imo. This may just be the original photo's color is unbalanced, or the coin is recolored.

The granular-looking stuff near the rims needs to be examined very carefully. Is it corrosion?
More ominously, some of the better, newer Chinese fakes have raised granularity just inside the rims.

Hope you can post larger, sharper photos once it arrives. Interesting thread.

nightowl · 10-31-2009, 10:04 AM

Agreed, in fact I said that the corrected version probably wasn't the right color either....the point in doing it was to show what kind of editing can be done. I don't have it here so I have nothing to compare it to. I don't mean to imply that it looks like that image....but rather that the actual coin could be way off of the color in the original pics.

It will arrive on monday I suppose since it left Sacramento on the 29th and didn't arrive today.

I'll post good pictures when I get it in hand.

Nightowl

yakpoo · 10-31-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightowl

Yes, the color looks wrong, but some of these guys can hardly operate a digital camera. It may arrive tomorrow....or possibly monday.

As for a die crack....an earlier dies state wouldn't necessarily exhibit that anomally...right?

Nightowl

The Newcomb numbering system isn't chronological which can make things somewhat difficult to track. According to Breen, N3(N3.5) and N4(N4.5) were the last die pairs used for 1834. They used the same Obverse die, but N3(N3.5) used Rev.C and N4(N4.5) used Rev.D.

The Rev.D die was struck from the complete 1835 hub. Prior to the N4 die, the hubs were incomplete and much detail was added to the working die by hand. According to Breen, the N4(N4.5) Rev.D was used after the striking of the N3 proofs, but before the N3 business strikes.

Rev.D is described by Breen as having "serrated" borders...which might be what's going on with the rim at Sta(tes). Btw, I missed this earlier...the Reverse "gunk" I referred to earlier is (according to Newcomb)...

Quote:

"...die rusted and rough about U(nited States). Examples are also found without being rusted and rough."

nightowl · 10-31-2009, 11:55 AM

That's very interesting...rusted reverse dies would explain that look. The mushy looking dentils on the reverse are just like an example in the heritage archives. That particular coin has a cud above the M in America....in case you go looking....but the dentils look very much the same.

Nightowl

Conder101 · 10-31-2009, 12:08 PM

I think it is probably real, I think it has had a problem with corrosion in the past an the coin was cleaned to get rid of it. What I can't understand that no one has mentioned is that it looks like someone has been pecking at the center of the reverse with an ice pick.

yakpoo · 10-31-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightowl

That's very interesting...rusted reverse dies would explain that look. The mushy looking dentils on the reverse are just like an example in the heritage archives. That particular coin has a cud above the M in America....in case you go looking....but the dentils look very much the same.

Nightowl

A few more descriptions of the Rev.D...

1 - the CEN(T) leans left.
2 - small center dot with a smaller dot above and to the right.
3 - from the smaller, upper dot...a light, crooked crack runs between O(NE).
4 - delicate crack through O(F AM)ERICA to rim.

I can see CEN(T) leaning left and there seems to be something going on with the center dot...but I can't tell anything more from these pictures.
If it's a fake, someone went to quite a bit of trouble to make it. I wish I could find some documentation about the left foot of CEN(T).

nightowl · 10-31-2009, 12:17 PM

I appreciate everybody's input, and I was hoping that Conder would weigh in given his other posts on coppers. I paid about half of numismedia's FMV for a middle AU, so even given the cleaning...I may well end up keeping it. In time it will darken, and look a little less freakish.

It will arrive on monday and we'll see what it looks like

Nightowl

900fine · 10-31-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightowl

I believe it's an N-4...Large 8 small stars, medium letters?

If it's genuine (which I believe it is), it's definitely N-4 (R.2). 1834s are easier to attribute than some other years. In addition to the diagnostics you mentioned, star 6 is immediately above, and points to, the coronet.

Good luck ! Can't wait to see the finished photos.

900fine · 10-31-2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakpoo

I can see CEN(T) leaning left and there seems to be something going on with the center dot...but I can't tell anything more from these pictures.

Noyes says "double center dot, second above right" i.e. a smaller dot to the NE of the main one. Hard to say if that + fuzzy photography + corrosion explains the dot-funk Conder mentions. We'll see.

nightowl · 11-02-2009, 10:12 AM

The coin arrived this morning, and yes, it's been cleaned in the past, but I think we all knew that's not the natural color of a 175 yr old copper coin. There is much mint luster present, and the rusted die is correct.

Still, it's not been abrasively cleaned, has remnants of red in protected areas, and given what I paid for it, I am going to keep it as a decent example of a matron head LC. I don't have a lot of time to mess with pictures right now, but I took these real quick in flourescent lighting. The coin still appears a little more "brassy" than it appears in hand. I'll take better pics later.

Conder is a psychic...the damage to the center of the reverse looks intentionally inflicted, and that's unfortunate. It'll never see a slab. I have removed it from the airtite and placed it in an old paper envelope for now. That should help the freakish color some.

Nightowl

mark_h · 11-02-2009, 10:41 AM

Yep the reverse has led a rough life, but if you are happy then I am glad. And the obverse does have some really nice details, too bad about the color.

nightowl · 11-02-2009, 11:10 AM

I think it I'm OK at the price. I believe the rim of the reverse, which would leave one with the impression that it's lead a much harder life than it has... is imparted by the worn out, rusted reverse die that they used....but the damage in the center is the real bummer....that and the color.

Thanks.....

Nightowl