What in the WORLD do you call this?

penidave · 09-29-2009, 10:14 AM

2009 D District of Columbia Quarter...
is this a Doubled Die or some form of damage? it kind of looks like both to me... could a Doubled Die have Damage on it too? just asking..
(keeping my fingers crossed)

bhp3rd · 09-29-2009, 10:19 AM

They can have both but this is mechanical/machine doubling. Always ask yourself "does the image look scooted, pushed or pulled"? If so 99.99% of the time it is just a machine doubled coin.

penidave · 09-29-2009, 10:33 AM

actually inhand it doesn't looked scooted, pushed or pulled. it looks "cut into". like someone took a sharp blade and cut into the tops of all the letters but just barely and the bottoms of the letters looks like someone was "trimming fat" off the bottom.. excuse the expressions i just don't know all the correct terms..
no-the-less odd. i searched all of Ken Potter's examples of Doublings and Damage to educate myself and NONE look like mine.
i also find it strange that Ken's picture of the 1960 Small Date over Large Date penny looks exactly like bad die deterioration damage to me (except for the RPM). hmmmm..

bhp3rd · 09-29-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penidave

actually inhand it doesn't looked scooted, pushed or pulled. it looks "cut into". like someone took a sharp blade and cut into the tops of all the letters but just barely and the bottoms of the letters looks like someone was "trimming fat" off the bottom.. excuse the expressions i just don't know all the correct terms..
no-the-less odd. i searched all of Ken Potter's examples of Doublings and Damage to educate myself and NONE look like mine.
i also find it strange that Ken's picture of the 1960 Small Date over Large Date penny looks exactly like bad die deterioration damage to me (except for the RPM). hmmmm..

Even with a small date on top of a large date??? This type of doubling which is a class #3 design hub doubling is a perfect example of this type of doublED die - it looks different though than other forms of doubled dies.
No die deterioration at all.
You should be comparing your coin to class 1 or 2 type doubling.
Plus the reason you coin is not a doubled die is again because the doubling looks scooted, there are no splits in the serifs at all just movement.

penidave · 09-29-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhp3rd

Even with a small date on top of a large date??? This type of doubling which is a class #3 design hub doubling is a perfect example of this type of doublED die - it looks different though than other forms of doubled dies.
No die deterioration at all.
You should be comparing your coin to class 1 or 2 type doubling.
Plus the reason you coin is not a doubled die is again because the doubling looks scooted, there are no splits in the serifs at all just movement.

NOOOO... i wasn't comparing my coin to Ken's coin at all! i'm simply confused b/c Ken's coin looks like DD "to me".. just trying to understand the different forms of doubling to educate myself.
here's a good pic of DD it looks almost the same (to me)... on Ken's pic the 9 looks scooted and the 0 looks shrunken "to me" (DD)... i'm not trying to debunk his coin i KNOW it's the real deal i'm just trying to understand what to look for b/c it confuses me.. i was just switching topics (sorry) i wasn't comparing the coins... sorry, again.. newbie mistake i guess. : (

bhp3rd · 09-29-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penidave

NOOOO... i wasn't comparing my coin to Ken's coin at all! i'm simply confused b/c Ken's coin looks like DD "to me".. just trying to understand the different forms of doubling to educate myself.
here's a good pic of DD it looks almost the same (to me)... on Ken's pic the 9 looks scooted and the 0 looks shrunken "to me" (DD)... i'm not trying to debunk his coin i KNOW it's the real deal i'm just trying to understand what to look for b/c it confuses me.. i was just switching topics (sorry) i wasn't comparing the coins... sorry, again.. newbie mistake i guess. : (

No prob. I really want you to "get it" and you will, it's not an easy thing to learn and learn well.
I think the reason Potter's coin looked that way to you is because the photo was taken straight on top looking directly down on it. To learn true die doubling you must learn to turn the coin, sometimes radically to get the light in on it and see "what your supposed to see".
It can be very hard to tell some.
Unlike your coin true doubled dies will not be directly on top of the coin. They will be juxtopositioned from them. In other words adjacent to be but slightly adjar from, (a letter or number not only on top but beside the primary, another image there.
These are my own ways of explaining it and are not official. But look at your coin again, is the secondary image you see a part of the original or truly another seperate image?? That's the key sort of like if you were somehow able to remove the machine doubling and nothing else on your coin would you still have a complete image of the letter? In other words your doubling is an extension of the primary and not a new and seperate device.

desertgem · 09-29-2009, 10:55 AM

The photo of the 1960 D/D DDO shown is a LDS (stage 4) with the piece of broken die in the inside upper part of the "6". It is not found in the previous 3 stages, but it isn't deterioration doubling. And as Ben says, it is a different type of doubling.

Jim

jcuve · 09-29-2009, 11:24 AM

Interpreting photographs of Doubled Dies and other forms of doubling is difficult. In hand, that 1960D sm/lg looks nothing like DDD.

When a coin is machine doubled, it cuts into the part of the design effected, thus the normal looking part of the design effected is smaller as the other area has been flattened. Conversely a doubled die adds to the size of the design.

The DC quarter shown, displays classic machine doubling. Keep searching and you'll find many, many more...

penidave · 09-29-2009, 11:30 AM

[QUOTE=jcuve;699721]
When a coin is machine doubled, it cuts into the part of the design effected, thus the normal looking part of the design effected is smaller as the other area has been flattened. Conversely a doubled die adds to the size of the design.QUOTE]

now i get it.. wow, this entire time i thought when something looked "cut" into the design it could be a Doubled Die... i thought anything scooted, slid or shelf like was only damage...you really just helped me in a real big way..

penidave · 09-29-2009, 11:37 AM

i am truly learning so much.. thanks for all your help bhp3rd and jcuve
now i'm going to go eat some breakfast before i start to look through the 300+ error coins i have hoarded up! lol...

just coins · 09-29-2009, 11:50 AM

I think you coin has good pertential of being a doubled die i see notching on the A the left leg and right leg as well.This is not machine doubling no shelf like images ,and the images seem to be clear and rounded in some areas of the letters the images are not mushy. This could be a coin with some die deterioration doubling mixed in ,and a doubled die.

They can coexist on one coin I have seen it many times so just don't get rid of this coin yet. With DDD you have doubling on both sides of the coin in most cases as the pic that was posted .Your coin does not have those qualties. Try and give us different angles of the doubling before coming to a conclusion on this specimen.
I just want to make note with die deterioration doubling you would see an orange peel effect on the fields and yours doe's not have this another indication to know the die is worn.
Jazzcoins Joe

Conder101 · 09-30-2009, 05:25 PM

I also see what appears to be serif notching in the first two pictures. At the lower left foot of the A, and at the bottom of the MB.

Picture 3 is clearly machine doubling.

No opinion on pictures 4 & 5.

jcuve · 09-30-2009, 05:43 PM

I suppose it is possible those are notches on the lower left of the A & MB, but it could also be the way the light is hitting the coin. It is an uncharacteristic location for single squeeze doubling, but anything is possible. Maybe Penidave can take more pictures emphasizing that area so we can be sure...

Collect89 · 09-30-2009, 09:26 PM

Hello Penidave,

This post in the coin chat forum depicts a 1961 Half Dollar with doubled die reverse. http://www.cointalk.com/t71726/

It is a class V doubled die where the 2nd hubbing was pivoted.

If the link doesn't work, the post is currently in the Coin Chat part of CoinTalk.

Very best regards,
collect89

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