Thread: Teen pays in legal tender has to call cops

The only time someone can refuse a payment method is before the services/goods are rendered. A store can refuse to accept pennies or anything over twenties as long as you are not already in debt to them, like at a gas station where you pay before you receive goods.

Once a service/good is render then you become in debt to the merchant/person and therefore they must accept any form of legal tender. If you are in debt to someone and they refuse payment in legal tender than you can take them to court and have the debt erased on grounds of not accepting legal tender.

ETA: hontonai beat me too it and explained it much better than I did.....

For everyone debating the legality of having to accept pennies as tender:

The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all United States money are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.


ONLY PRIVATE BUSINESSES can refuse it, if this tow agency had any affiliation with the city,county, etc. (as most do) They are in dealings with a government and therefore cannot refuse it.

SOURCE:

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/c...l-tender.shtml

Originally Posted by hontonai

My gut reaction was “The cops goofed”, on the theory that the number of one cent coins usable as legal tender in a single transaction was limited, based on my recollection of research done many years ago.

Had I posted that response, I would have to eat my words!

§5103 of Title 31, United States Code, as currently in force reads simply:

Nowhere else in federal law is there any restriction on the words “coins . . .are legal tender”.

Looks like nowadays any amount of coin may be used in payment of debts, or obligations to the government.

Quibble over whether a particular obligation to pay money is a “debt” is irrelevant here, as there was unquestionably a “debt” involved.

Ok, hope if you don't mind what is probably a silly question but where do other forms of tender fit into all of this.

It seems from that section of code that U.S. currency and coins are legal tender but foreign currency and coins are not. But, there are many places that do not accept out of town checks or certain types of credit cards etc. These are clearly not illegal tender, but they must not be legal tender as well since places are not obligated to take them. What kind of legal restrictions do these fall under as far as accepting/declining them fall under?

Edit: Reading the above link makes me even more confused. What point is it that something is even considered legal tender if, according to that law and that interpretation, people do not even have to accept it. It even notes in that question that some government agencies do not accept it. Then why bother calling it legal tender or making other tender illegal?

Don't know if that made any sense, but all of this talk just had me wondering how those fit into the legal side of the system.

Originally Posted by wiggam007

there are many places that do not accept out of town checks or certain types of credit cards etc. These are clearly not illegal tender.

There is a huge difference between "illegal" tender - essentially only counterfeit coin or currency - and "non" legal tender - anything other than US coins and currency.

"Illegal" tender can be confiscated as contraband, which means that the government can take it without reimbursement of any kind.

"Non" legal tender may be accepted, declined, or accepted with conditions, at the discretion of the receiver.

Again, what must be kept in mind is the difference between "debts" and other obligations. Refusal to accept legal tender for a debt has serious adverse consequences but in non-debt cases such as a typical retail store transaction, the obligee is king and can impose any restriction that is not expressly forbidden by law (such as charging a fee for use of a credit card, even though giving a discount for cash is permitted.)

Originally Posted by fisher2

its worse in my town they wont accept rolls as payment imma see if the coinstore will accept halves

rolls i wouldn't care

Originally Posted by Wren

rolls i wouldn't care

same

the time the kid took to secure and count all the pennies, he was going to use for payment, could have been better used. Did he carry all the pennies on hes bicycle to the towing agency? That would be heavy.

Originally Posted by sweet wheatz

That would be heavy.

Between 48.4 and 60.21 pounds, depending on the mix of pre/post-1982s.

Originally Posted by schroeder2246

The law actually mandates that businesses can accept or deny any form of payment. Basically, she could have refused the pennies if she wanted to...

This is what I thought. I thought that a private business can refuse or accept any form of payment they choose. I think the kids were just trying to be a pain.

Originally Posted by schroeder2246

The law actually mandates that businesses can accept or deny any form of payment. Basically, she could have refused the pennies if she wanted to...

I guess some people refuse to believe that Title 31 U.S.Code §5103 means what it says. Since the tow charges were a "debt", had the tow company refused the tender of payment in cents, it would have legally forgiven the debt and been obligated to turn over the vehicle. (Technically there is no such legal mandate - there is simply an absence of mandate specifying what a business must take for non-debt obligations.)

Originally Posted by CamaroDMD

This is what I thought. I thought that a private business can refuse or accept any form of payment they choose.

Yes, for non-debt obligations such as the sale price of goods, but NOT FOR A DEBT until and unless the US Constitution is amended, or Congress rethinks its exercise of that constitutional authority.

I think the kids were just trying to be a pain.

Of course they were, but what does that have to do with their legal rights?

I say kudos kiddo! I only wish he would have opened the two boxes too - give em 8,800 unrolled pennies and then insisted on counting them out himself. While I am in business and would hate to have someone come in with such a mess.... I would have to laugh, fuss and accept it. The only thing that upsets me about this whole thing is that, from what I can gather, it occupied three (or more) police officers for roughly 45 min. That is a waste of resources, time, and money. I can see where the blame on that topic could be assigned to any of the parties involved, including the police.

As to the debate back and forth whether a business can refuse payment or not. Yes, they can refuse it; however, they would wind up in the hot seat if it went to court. As hontonai mentioned earlier, the fact that this is a debt negates the merchants right to refuse the business/sale. I don't know what the costs to the merchant would be, but, it is very fair to say they would be much higher than the labor involved in counting 8,800 pennies.

Originally Posted by JoseRZ

I have to say if we had a person do that where I work I would accept the money. But I will waste their time. One cent, twwwo cents, threeeee ccceeentts, fooouuurr cents. But I do have a problem if their is any noise or they fidget, I might loss count. I would make a point to the customers behind him that he decide to fight a large corporation by annoying a low wage worker. If they want to be a smart alec, so will I.

Yep - funny, but being a smart aleck. I would have done just this...then after having waited several days for me to count they might have volunteered to get cash. Or better yet - count them quick as say there is less than 88. No car until paid in full. Then make the kid re-count them. I could think of other ways to make them suffer.

Yes the kids were trying to be a pain, no duh, and you know I would consider doing something like this as well.
Did the kid know that he parked in a tow zone? If so, then, he simply paid what was due, in a way to be a pain, back to the company that had his car towed (because he thought they were being a pain by towing his car)
If he didn't know he parked in a tow zone, then I would fight not to pay the $88, but if you had to do it, I would pay in pennies to
There was nothing wrong with what this kid did.

Sometimes people deserve tickets, and sometimes they're just issued to generate revenue. Perhaps if the powers that be knew that they would be paid in pennies, they might not be so quick to write that revenue generating ransom note.