Off-Center Clashed Die, Double Die Indian Cent!

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 12:52 PM

I posted this coin on another forum but am so jazzed about this coin, I wanted to share it here too! I just got photos back of some new purchases for my personal collection (from Todd at bluccphotos.com of course!) - this is one I'm especially thrilled to own. I bought it in the B&M auction, and here's Rick Snow's write up about how it got the clash:

1880 Indian Cent. Snow-1, FS-101 (FS-009.41). Doubled Die Obverse, Off-Center Clashed Die Reverse. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Eagle Eye Photo Seal.

This is one of the most intriguing varieties known to collectors irrespective of denomination or type. There are clashmarks on the reverse from the obverse die, but instead of being emplaced in the corresponding area they are widely off center. Such is the position of the clashmarks, in fact, that the letters ICA in AMERICA and the surrounding denticles are clearly visible sweeping down through the reverse field between the right wreath and the shield to the letters NE in ONE. One theory as to the cause of this off-center clash is a quick hardness test by the die maker. By smacking the soft die with another die, the impression left would show whether the die was soft enough to accept a digit punch.

The coin itself is fully struck with beautiful glossy-brown surfaces. It has incredible eye appeal as well. The PCGS insert denotes the variety and attribution.

PCGS Population: just 2 in MS-65 BN, and none are finer regardless of color designation.

(you can click on the photo for a larger view)

Leadfoot · 07-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Neat coin, thanks for sharing!

mark_h · 07-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Very sweet indeed. Nice coin.

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 03:07 PM

I'm curious, someone on the CU forum posted that the off-center die clashing occurs "from a greatly tilted obverse die. The die was probably fallinbg [sic] out of the upper die holder when it came down and impacted the reverse die like this." Does anyone here have any thoughts or knowledge as to how the off-center die clashing occurs?

Treashunt · 07-09-2009, 03:23 PM

no actual knowledge.

It was before my time.

J/K

nice coin.

Leadfoot · 07-09-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Penny Lady

I'm curious, someone on the CU forum posted that the off-center die clashing occurs "from a greatly tilted obverse die. The die was probably fallinbg [sic] out of the upper die holder when it came down and impacted the reverse die like this." Does anyone here have any thoughts or knowledge as to how the off-center die clashing occurs?

I saw that post too. The die must have been fairly heavy for its impact to impare die steel, and quite frankly I have trouble believing it could happen like that. Then again, I have a great deal of respect for TD's opinion....

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 03:44 PM

But it made some sense to me because, if the die wasn't tilted, then you'd think the entire or at least more of the obverse coin would also show up as clashing on the reverse, instead of just a part of the obverse coin as it shows now.

Leadfoot · 07-09-2009, 03:50 PM

Hmmm....

That does make some sense.... But I keep coming back to die steel isn't that malleable to begin with (or at least I thought it wasn't), and dropping one die on another wouldn't make such obvious marks -- or at least I wouldn't think it would.

Perhaps something else was attached to the die making it weigh more?

Perhaps the die steel isn't as hard as I think?

Hmmm....

Fascinating coin, to be sure.....

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 03:52 PM

Here's what that same guy on the other forum added:

Yeah. Imagine if the upper die became loose while the press was running. Perhaps a set screw broke or something. It could fall down at an angle and be jammed against the reverse die with a lot of force. Wherever it hit, it hit.

So maybe this is a more likely possibility for the off-center clashing.... Interesting in any event.

Leadfoot · 07-09-2009, 03:56 PM

Now THAT makes a great deal more sense -- happened inside the press with much more weight behind it than the die itself.

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 04:15 PM

Sorry to keep quoting from the other forum, but this guy's theory makes more sense - here's more from the same guy:

And, there is no reason to make a huge disfiguring mark on a perfectly usable working die. THe Mint had equipment to perform the contemporary equivalent of a Rockwell Hardness Test, where you smack the surface of a die with a hardened pointed tool and see how large a (tiny) hole it makes. Just leaves a tiny pimple on the coins then struck from that die.

vipergts2 · 07-09-2009, 04:18 PM

Very cool coin.

ldhair · 07-09-2009, 04:35 PM

Tough coin to find. I have an AU but wish it were better. The dealer thought it was damage.

Arizona Jack · 07-09-2009, 09:01 PM

You never cease to amaze Charmy.

As a journeyman toolmaker, I think it is entirely possible the theory Tom described. I have been spotting dies on several occasions when a punch, core pin, or gib has fallen...and it never drops straight or head on. It always damages the cavity or botom half of the shoe/mold.

Ricks idea is possible, but I tend to agree that the mint had the proper equiptment to test the rockwell C scale hardness, even back then. Unless a shoddy worker was in a hurry or neglected proper protocol, that most likely would not happen.

Back to the coin. Incredible.

The Penny Lady · 07-09-2009, 11:16 PM

Wow, I learned something new about you Jack! A journeyman toolmaker on top of singer, guitarist, hot sauce inventor, and great coin guy! And I agree that Tom's scenario is more plausible. I'm finding it very interesting learning how these errors occur.

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