Prooflike St Gaudens

rmorello · 07-01-2009, 03:01 PM

What's your opinion on the prooflike specimens? I am amazed at how little is being written or said about this oddity. Are they going to be true rarities, or are we placing too much value on the slabs and/or the opinion of one grading service over another? PCGS isn't grading coins as prooflike. What's going to happen when prooflike specimens slabbed in PCGS holders? Are they "gold" waiting to be discovered by simply re-subbing them to NGC? Is this a passing fancy, and the PL designation to become meaningless? What's the consensus on this?

Bob

P.s. I am a newbie, and posted part of this post elsewhere - so please grade with a curve (Show off your Bullion). I think it is better to ask this question here.

Mark Feld · 07-01-2009, 03:30 PM

PL examples are extremely common/the norm for that issue, whether PCGS uses the designation or not. I see no reason to try to try to cross them into NGC holders, and think that the PL designation is indeed meaningless, other than to the uninformed.

Treashunt · 07-01-2009, 03:36 PM

Darn, I thought that you meant the real St Gaudens!

Not these modern replicas.

That I want to see!

rmorello · 07-01-2009, 03:38 PM

I guess you can count me among the uniformed.

Mark Feld · 07-01-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treashunt

Darn, I thought that you meant the real St Gaudens!

Not these modern replicas.

That I want to see!

There are no legitimately PL Saints (of the "real" type) that I am aware of.

That said, NGC has graded a single Saint (a 1922-S) PL and I haven't seen it.

Treashunt · 07-01-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Feld

There are no legitimately PL Saints (of the "real" type) that I am aware of.

That said, NGC has graded a single Saint (a 1922-S) PL and I haven't seen it.

That would be a great piece to see!

and rmorello: I was just teasing ya!

Mark Feld · 07-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorello

I guess you can count me among the uniformed.

Not so fast there, buster.

Why do you feel that the PL designation is meaningful?

rmorello · 07-01-2009, 03:46 PM

I don't have a fraction of the knowledge you do, I admit that, but there's a dramatic difference between the regular surfaced ones and the PL ones, and people seem to be willing to pay plenty for them. I guess only time will tell.

.... but the census does seem to be climbing, with 1350 non-PL vs 54 PL

Treashunt · 07-01-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorello

I don't have a fraction of the knowledge you do, I admit that, but there's a dramatic difference between the regular surfaced ones and the PL ones, and people seem to be willing to pay plenty for them. I guess only time will tell.

okay: lets take this in parts: "I don't have a fraction of the knowledge you do" I am not sure of that, ask around. (just don't ask Doug, we all know what he will say!)

then: "dramatic difference between the regular surfaced ones and the PL ones, and people seem to be willing to pay plenty for them"
Okay, as Mark mentioned, they are not that scarce.
So, if folks will pay a premium, then I guess that is their choice. But, for a piece that is supposed to be bullion? Sorry, that seems silly.

rmorello · 07-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Is it really bullion, if it is technically a $20 Eagle, and has none of the characteristics of the other bullion coins - fineness, wt, etc. - isn't it more like a commemorative issue?

Mark Feld · 07-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorello

I don't have a fraction of the knowledge you do, I admit that, but there's a dramatic difference between the regular surfaced ones and the PL ones, and people seem to be willing to pay plenty for them. I guess only time will tell.

.... but the census does seem to be climbing, with 1350 non-PL vs 54 PL

For the most part, I don't follow the populations and prices. So don't sell yourself short here.

Keep in mind, though, even though PCGS doesn't use the PL designation, there are MANY PL examples in PCGS holders. My guess (and that's all it is) is that whatever the current premium is for the PL pieces, it will come down, not move up, over the long run. Please note, I have been wrong many times in the past and will be in the future.

rmorello · 07-01-2009, 04:01 PM

I have 2 reasons to hope you are . . .

Fortunately, I happen to really love the pieces and if it served to fire my love for the hobby again, maybe it's a blessing. What do you think about the Buffalos, especially the fractionals that aren't to be issued again?

Mark Feld · 07-01-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorello

I have 2 reasons to hope you are . . .

Fortunately, I happen to really love the pieces and if it served to fire my love for the hobby again, maybe it's a blessing. What do you think about the Buffalos, especially the fractionals that aren't to be issued again?

I am strongly biased against high production moderns which are apt to be graded very high on average and which selll for large premiums over their bullion value.

Treashunt · 07-01-2009, 04:08 PM

rmorello:
I have to agree with Mark.
And note that this is all guess work on my part.
I have been wrong more times than I have been right!

[just ask my wife.]
But, I agree that the premiums will come down as more are slabbed. As they surely will be.

I do like the fractional Buffs, but, then again, I don't own any. I have always refused to pay the premium.

RWB · 07-01-2009, 06:35 PM

All of the Extremely High Relief 2009 bullion pieces are struck the same way. Minor differences are due to dies gradually picking up the surface of blank planchets.

None of them look like the original small diameter double eagles.

As for Saint-Gaudens production $20, no PL or semi-PL or any other “shiny” specimens were intentionally made because the dies were not polished.

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