Vess1

Just a FYI: There's a good article in the July issue of COINage concerning Ebay, fakes and what's been going on with their policies behind the scenes. It sounds like they've had a falling out with the ANA and as far as measures in place to protect the consumer, Ebay is going backwards.

One gentlemen states that about 40% or perhaps even HALF of all coins offered on ebay are counterfeit. And getting worse. Mostly but not all from China.

They had a group of around 12 *volunteer* numismatists who regularly let ebay know about fakes for several years but after ebay didn't do enough for so long, the group became disenchanted with them and has virtually collapsed by early 2009.

If they do suspend a seller, they typically will start back up under a different username and they're back in business.

They are angry that Ebay won't issue a zero tolerance policy and they won't even pull auctions that are for fake coins that don't even exist. Not to mention the fact that Ebay no longer allows people to communicate or warn anyone.

It says one guy purchased a complete set of Morgans for $96 off Ebay and brought the set to an Arizona coin show, where knowledgeable coin dealers offered him $35,000 before he broke the news to them.

The new counterfeits are practically indistinguishable and Ebay is actually doing more to help get them all over here than fighting it.

I find this to be disappointing. That may help Ebay in the short term but I can't help but think that it may just kill their profits in the long term, once all these people realize they've been ripped off. I can't believe Ebay isn't taken to court on a regular basis.

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krispy

Thanks Vess1, this is a very important topic. Thanks for posting this. I'm going to find/read the whole article.

GDJMSP

Taken to court for what ? They are not doing anything illegal.

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HandsomeToad

That's the biggest problem. The internet has created new ways to rip off peeps and the current laws do not address all of the problems. Because Ebay profits off the fraud, there needs to be legislation written that places more liability on Ebay to force them to stop the fraud or pay the consequences.

Great thread, Vess!

Ribbit

borgovan

Well, I disagree that 40-50% of eBay's coins are counterfeit. I'd be very interested to know where the fellow came up with that figure. I would say it's less than 10%; probably much less.

I have no problem buying coins from eBay. Am I going to buy raw trade dollars? Of course not. But there are plenty of good coins there for good prices, and I continue to shop on eBay.

I refuse to sell on eBay, as it doesn't make good business sense, given their confiscatory fee structure and seller-penalizing policies. I used to sell there quite a bit, but I quit quite some time ago.

For an educated buyer, though? Great prices can still be had.

As far as the legality or illegality of eBay's actions? I'm not a lawyer, but I would say that it's 100% certain to any reasonable individual that eBay is providing a venue for the sale of counterfeit merchandise. Since counterfeit coins are explicitly illegal, and since eBay is not taking sufficient positive measures to prevent the sale; and furthermore, since they are profiting from the sale of counterfeit coins; then they are complicit in the sale. They're not actually completing the transaction, but they're profiting from it.

I can't lease my living room to people who want to sell illegal narcotics, and charge them a 15% fee for doing so. Sure, I'm not actually selling the drugs, but I'm profiting from an illegal activity. That's a no-no.

Vess1

I don't agree. How long do you get to play the stupid card and pretend that they're doing something to combat fraud? They are knowingly perpetuating fraud for the sake of profit.

They can't play nieve anymore because they have obviously acknowledged that there is a problem. You're saying they are not responsible for their business, including enforcing their own rules to protect consumers?

People go to court over a lot less than that these days.

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When the well's dry, we know the worth of water.
- Benjamin Franklin

Vess1

Excellent post and excellent points. I was trying to find a way to illustrate a comparison and you did it.

40-50 is probably high. I'm guessing they may have included all the auctions that are listed as being copies. Which would get the number up there but technically they wouldn't be against the rules. But of course, many come over with no copy stamp on them.

I agree that there are still many good deals to be had for half-way educated buyers. It isn't a total loss yet.

__________________
When the well's dry, we know the worth of water.
- Benjamin Franklin

Boss

Wow borgovan- great point. I just started selling eBay coins and this is discouraging. I am certain I don't own an counterfeits (to my knowledge) as I only buy from the same sellers I trust and from my local coin shop. Where do you sell your coins now.

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GDJMSP

They are only complicit in your eyes, and some others. But in the eyes of the law they are not doing anything illegal.


Again, they are not doing anything illegal. And as for fraud - what you think constitutes fraud is not the way the law sees it. For example, is it fraud for all the TV advertisers to make all the claims they do about the value of the junk they sell ? No, in the eyes of the law it is not fraud. And there is not 1 thing illegal about it.

The only people breaking the law in regard to the counterfeits sold on ebay are the people doing the actual selling.

There is a big difference between something being unethical, or perhaps even immoral, and something being illegal.

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Paddy54

Smiple business law states that as an agent you are responsible.....An agent is anyone having a stake in the said deal. Just because people don't know this fact does not mean they can't take action against said agent. The action taken may or may not be as servere as fines or jail time but you are liable. E bay is an agent and charging fee's for listing and FVF'S they can be held responsible as said agent.

"Well this is what I was taught in college business law "

Paddy54

Another issue I have now with E bay is it is an monoply now!
You can't elect to do anything in e bay these days with out going thought them. IE Payments are and can only be made using Pay Pal! No longer can cash, check ,MO or other means be used in a payment. With this kind of control of this site how can't they be held liable for items sold on their site?

borgovan

I sell on a website I set up, as well as selling privately to dealers, and I occasionally set up at coin shows. eBay just isn't worth the fees and hassle anymore.

borgovan

[quote=GDJMSP;626643]They are only complicit in your eyes, and some others. But in the eyes of the law they are not doing anything illegal.

When a civil suit is brought, it may very well be people like me who are judging them.

The law has no eyes until someone complains. When enough citizen complaints are made, eBay will be investigated.

I think it's inevitable that eBay will be the subject of a class-action or other civil lawsuit. I may even start one myself. As a legitimate seller, I can claim all of the elements of a tort against eBay: They have a duty to protect the buyers, they are negligent in their duty, they have caused financial harm, and there is a proximate cause between their breach of duty and the harm caused.

Mark Feld

I took business law. I also got a law degree. And legally, an agent is not necessarily simply "anyone having a stake in said deal". If it were so clear-cut that Ebay had liability for such transactions, I am confident that there would have been numerous successful lawsuits brought against them by now.

Paddy54

Yeah I can see it now the little guy winning a settlement against a big company such as e bay.....lets see how much it would cost in said suit? And how many lawyers does a company such as e bay have? The only way to win a case as such would be class action.......and the winner would be ?????

THE LAWYERS Case dismissed