Is there room for everyone in this hobby?

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 02:45 PM

I am an avid, if new and somewhat uneducated collector. I am reading every book I can buy to learn, but still know how much I'll never know...
But, here is the question I pose the board members: is the coin collecting hobby tolerent of all the different types of collectors, or do you have to be an 'on the tradeshow floor with 20 years of experience' to fit in? It sounds silly, but I have found that it is a hobby that in many ways makes it tough to belong if you don't fit the mold. Ebay is one example, as is the PCGS message boards, where the elite seem to take every opportunity to bash 'wanabees' and anyone who does not view the hobby their way. Me, I love coins... I love buying them, and selling them to buy others. I don't always know a good deal when I get one, and I get ripped on occassion, and I overgrade and undergrade, but I try to get it all right and have fun. Yet, there are many who would say 'you don't belong here' because somehow, you should not buy, or sell any coin of value until you 'truly' understand its value. In fact, I see endless posts about how wrong it is to try to buy wholesale since you should pay top dollar and get your coin from a reputable dealer who has the right to pay wholesale...
I am hoping this board is different, and recognizes that hobbies need to adapt and to allow new people in to learn their way and eventually take the hobby forward. If younger (and I mean experience wise, not age) hobbiests don't come in because they are not afforded respect and genuinely invited to learn and partake in their own way, then won't the hobby just wither and die?
So, am I crazy, or is the numismatic world a difficult one to wander around in? Is there room for those that don't care about the 'art' but love the coins just because they look cool, or are fun to dig through, and all of that? I have frankly been so disapointed in other boards, and the attacks and snide jabs, that I wonder if this hobby is worth pursuing. Heck, even my local coin store owner is snide about my knowledge, somehow hinting I should know more before I come through the doors.

ndgoflo · 03-28-2005, 03:17 PM

Some of the best Major Leaguers started off playing Tee Ball.....

ndgoflo · 03-28-2005, 03:18 PM

BTW, Welcome to the forum!!

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 03:22 PM

thanks, I liked the look of this site, and the general talk seemed freindly. I hope to learn and contribute. Starting off with a beefy question seemed like a fun way to jump in!
I don't contribute in many forums (only one other, and after recent attacks, I'm outa there...) Not that I'm not thick skinned, but life is to short to have a battle of wits with the witless... I just want to be part of this wonderful world of coins! Love 'em... I have expended way too much money in way to short a time in this facination! Now I must speed up learning process...

cush66 · 03-28-2005, 03:26 PM

Richard, there are a lot of folks that think the same as you. There are more of the "good ones" vs the "bad ones". I use these terms for lack of a better word if you know what I mean. Local coin clubs sometimes offer a good outlet. I havent been on this board as long as the others but I can say that the posts have changed from when I first started. Lots of the posts you just have to take it with a grain of salt. It is very hard to try and understand what a person is trying to say when you have to read vs see and listen in person...at least it is for me hehheh. I think this is a good place and who knows....this may be your "nitch" LOL!!! Trust me, you are not alone in your search. Hang in there and collect for the fun of it and collect whatever you like....I know I do and I could care less if i didnt get a spectacular deal or if it isnt worth anything etc etc.

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 03:34 PM

I think that the greatest drawback of boards is that they are anonomous, therefore they invite rudeness and personal attacks. You see it everywhere, and it drives away many that you'd love to talk to. Almost worse for me is the condescending 'come back when you know enough' type comments, and that is what I hope to avoid. That is what I hope is not prevalent here. I want to learn from the experienced folks, but maybe insert some new ideas that they could think about and accept at face value (instead of just hating that ebay, the internet, and tpg's have changed the industry forever). Things change, they always do, but the best way to preserve the 'best of the industry' is to share and encourage others to learn good things and care about the hobby. The smug attacks always seem counter productive to me.

midwestcoin13 · 03-28-2005, 03:44 PM

Remember everyone has to start somewhere.You are lucky as you have found the forums.Everyone starts somewhere and in between there they some times forget about most of the people and become elitests.You should go over to the PCGS forum and join as they dont bight.Usually!Along the way you will meet people who don't think you belong but most will welocme you.Unless you collect modern junk then you should leave and never come back

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 03:52 PM

I lurk at PCGS but there is a poster there that talks about 'wanabee' coin sellers that set my teeth on edge (as if the free market system can't support every type of selling and buying that is available to it). So, I may pass on PCGS. They also fall into that PCGS slab or garbage trap, which I just don't subscribe to.
As to modern trash! Well, I only collect modern treasures! So, we'll be okay on that mark.

midwestcoin13 · 03-28-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard01

I lurk at PCGS but there is a poster there that talks about 'wanabee' coin sellers that set my teeth on edge (as if the free market system can't support every type of selling and buying that is available to it). So, I may pass on PCGS. They also fall into that PCGS slab or garbage trap, which I just don't subscribe to.
As to modern trash! Well, I only collect modern treasures! So, we'll be okay on that mark.

Just avoid the posts on wannabes and you should be fine.You also have to be careful about making comments on PCGS or you will get flamed more than a BK whopper!Also it sounds like you may have a PCGS problem?Please tell.Also it's good you collect only "modern treasures" because this hobby doesn't need any more of them modern trash collectors

satootoko · 03-28-2005, 05:43 PM

Welcome to the forum Richard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard01

I think that the greatest drawback of boards is that they are anonomous, therefore they invite rudeness and personal attacks. You see it everywhere, and it drives away many that you'd love to talk to. Almost worse for me is the condescending 'come back when you know enough' type comments, and that is what I hope to avoid. That is what I hope is not prevalent here. I want to learn from the experienced folks, but maybe insert some new ideas that they could think about and accept at face value (instead of just hating that ebay, the internet, and tpg's have changed the industry forever). Things change, they always do, but the best way to preserve the 'best of the industry' is to share and encourage others to learn good things and care about the hobby.

You have just expressed the philosophy of Peter T. Davis, the Admnistrator and owner of this site.

Quote:

The smug attacks always seem counter productive to me.

That's why the Moderators are so diligent in enforcing the rules against personal attacks, etc. We absolutely refuse to allow this forum to become another site where flaming is an accepted practice. GDJMSP's signature line truly expresses the primary purpose of this forum: "Knowledge ..... share it".

Everyone on this forum is, or has been, a novice. Many on this forum have gained a measure of expertise in some numismatic areas. Everyone on this forum has a lot to learn.

Absolutely no one on this forum - present company definitely included - knows it all!

BTW - the answer to your title question is an unequivocal You bet!

lawdogct · 03-28-2005, 04:40 PM

Welcome to the forum. I haven't been here long myself, but have come to enjoy and greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge and experience represented by this forum. As has been mentioned, anywhere there are human beings involved, you will find your range of "characters", but on a whole, the tone here is very friendly. I feel that the "senior" collectors here (not neccisarly a note on age

) genuinely care about the hobby, and enjoy sharing it through the education of the new, not the discrimination.

Again, welcome

rick · 03-28-2005, 05:33 PM

I gotta say, Richard, if you enjoy what you're doing, and it suits you, that's great - but the pitfalls seem pretty large to me. I don't know if what you're doing qualifies as investment technique or flat out gambling. A lot of people like to gamble, so I'm not knocking it - I personally love gambling - but it seems to me you shoot from the hip on your buying trends (from your post about buying x to make y and reselling to get back x), and let experience teach you over time. Some of the best played gamblers claim to have a system, but it isn't a system of investment.

It's been my (albeit very limited) experience in this hobby that large bills do not equal better deals. Even that depends on what your definition of a better deal is, I guess. Some people think a better deal is a more magnificant coin - even if you paid market dollars for it. I think collectors would be far more apt to qualify a better deal in terms of a coin they are proud to own. Others will qualify a better deal as the difference between sale price and the market value. I think this would be an investor's outlook, although I know it's a far more common point of view.

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick

I gotta say, Richard, if you enjoy what you're doing, and it suits you, that's great - but the pitfalls seem pretty large to me. I don't know if what you're doing qualifies as investment technique or flat out gambling. A lot of people like to gamble, so I'm not knocking it - I personally love gambling - but it seems to me you shoot from the hip on your buying trends (from your post about buying x to make y and reselling to get back x), and let experience teach you over time. Some of the best played gamblers claim to have a system, but it isn't a system of investment.

It's been my (albeit very limited) experience in this hobby that large bills do not equal better deals. Even that depends on what your definition of a better deal is, I guess. Some people think a better deal is a more magnificant coin - even if you paid market dollars for it. I think collectors would be far more apt to qualify a better deal in terms of a coin they are proud to own. Others will qualify a better deal as the difference between sale price and the market value. I think this would be an investor's outlook, although I know it's a far more common point of view.

As I asked originally, is there room for everyone? I never claimed that my system made sense, or asked if others would do it, it is just how I do it. And, it is working, for me. Gambling? All investments are, that is just plain fact. You can buy Microsoft stock, and lose a lot of money. Investing/Gambling... just a matter of opinion. My stock investments tend to the riskier portfolios too, and that should not surprise anyone that hears how I buy coins. Yep, I shoot from a hip a bit, and go with my 'gut' instinct. Which is prone to be wrong at some point. If so, no harm, no foul. No one hurt along the way, and I'll adjust my thinking at that time, I suppose.
Definitions of 'better deals' will vary, and mine shift slowly. Six months ago, I just wanted lots of coins... lots and lots. Now, I still like quantity to dig around, but am starting to really only keep things worth over a certain amount (that amount keeps creaping up) and suddenly I realize I really love the looks of toned coins and will pay a premium for them. Over time, will I likely settle in and just buy what I want? Yes, most likely. Then will it be investing? well, Its still collecting to me, but just something that I think has more chance of long term value, so investing has a nicer ring than 'obsesively throwing money at my hobby'. My salf water fish tanks had a lot of the latter statment in them... but I still loved them. No investment value at all. Now, I spend just as much, get all kinds of stuff, and actually am left with something fun and valuable. Can't be a bad swap, can it?

rick · 03-28-2005, 06:17 PM

Well, I don't think we will see eye to eye on our points of view concerning investment structure, but that's ok.

Yes, there is certainly room for everyone in this hobby. Again, I did not mean to come across otherwise. I think that you will find a general distrust on this site for some of the more 'bottom tier' TPG services. If you are one to ignore the slab of their product, as you should for all coins, great. But the truth is that a lot of these 'grading services' are used for the sole purpose of window dressing their product - and that can be a dangerous thing (similar to buying stock in Enron) to the hobby as a whole. Their (sometimes grossly) misgraded coins can do real damage to a new collector - and in some cases, that collector will never trust the hobby again - and that's sad.

Richard01 · 03-28-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick

Well, I don't think we will see eye to eye on our points of view concerning investment structure, but that's ok.

Yes, there is certainly room for everyone in this hobby. Again, I did not mean to come across otherwise. I think that you will find a general distrust on this site for some of the more 'bottom tier' TPG services. If you are one to ignore the slab of their product, as you should for all coins, great. But the truth is that a lot of these 'grading services' are used for the sole purpose of window dressing their product - and that can be a dangerous thing (similar to buying stock in Enron) to the hobby as a whole. Their (sometimes grossly) misgraded coins can do real damage to a new collector - and in some cases, that collector will never trust the hobby again - and that's sad.

Disagreement is good! Don't sweat it. But, the question on the TGP's is this: are they all simply lumped into one bottom feeder bucket if they are not a big four, or are we able to 'layer' them with some understanding that there are different abilities, motivations, and qualities of product, which meet market needs. After all, I don't shop at KMART, but I think that they offer a product that meets a strong market need. Are there 'reputable' TPG's that are not top tier, and if so, who? I don't work for any of them, and don't have strong opinions, but some newly formulating opinions.
I like Nugrade for some of the cheaper ($3 per coin) auctions I've gotten their newer date MS63-MS65 coins on. Nice sacagawea's, state quarters, etc.). I find those coins at that price a value. Some were overgraded, but I did not find any I thought more than one grade off. So even then, a fair price for thos coins. I like ACCGS at face value, and like the price of the grading service and the coins I have (a couple) are nice. But, can I state I have a sample that makes me say "I'd send a hundred coins here for grading", nope. Anyone else have experiences that are good to point to?

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