New thread, lets study classes of doublED dies

bhp3rd · 03-12-2009, 10:17 AM

New thread, lets study classes of doublED dies one per week.

This will help me as well as everyone else on here if they really want to learn about doublED dies.

1st week Class I DoublED Dies
Rotated Hub Doubling
Examples: 1955 DDO #1, 1972 DDO #1970-S DDO #1 & 1969-S DDO #1 all Lincoln cents.
With Class I doubled dies the doubling occurs when there is a rotation between the image on the die and the image on the hub.
When the hub and the die are aligned in the hubbing press to make the second, third or forth impression in the working die there is a slight rotation between the two. The rotation can either be clockwise or counter clockwise. Since the second hubbing will push the hub a little more deeply into the die than the first hubbing, the image from the second hubbing will be a bit stronger than that of the first hubbing. As a result it is possible to tell when looking at a Class I doublED die whether the rotation between hubbings was in a CW or CCW direction.
On Class I doublED dies, being caused by rotation, the strongest spread will appear on the design elements closest to the rim and decrease in a uniform manner as you move towards the center of the coin, (die).
(paraphrased from The Cherry Pickers Guild)

"""As always remember and get it firmly in your head, a doublED die exists before a coin is ever struck and the resulting coin struck from a doublED die is then also called a doublED die"""" It is never called a "double" die or "double dyed" or "double die date" or "a double" or D/D, D/D is and RPM (re-punched mintmark) and was not possible to be a portion of a true doublED die till the early to mid 1990's on Lincoln Cents.

Next week, Class II doublEd dies!

Treashunt · 03-12-2009, 10:40 AM

about time!

Nice to read about the doubleD Die!

as an aside:
The term Doubled Die was coined by Ken Bressett.

Hobo · 03-12-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treashunt

as an aside:
The term Doubled Die was coined by Ken Bressett.

Are you sure about that? I would have thought the term had been around much longer than Ken Bressett. I'll ask him about it next time I see him.

gewoodfo · 03-12-2009, 11:26 AM

all: Would it be possible to include pics of these as they are discussed? or point to a reference for pics>

Thanks,

G.E.

bhp3rd · 03-12-2009, 11:59 AM

Cherry Pickers Guild or any web site just look for Class # I on any number of sites, Ken Potter - NCADD - CONECA - COPPERCOINS - Die variety News

Just Carl · 03-12-2009, 12:12 PM

Not meaning to advertise someone's books but a person named Charles Daughtrey has two books out on Lincoln Cents. In the beginning there is about 27 pages explaining double dies. Should be available on his web site also. www.coppercoins.com

ziggy9 · 03-12-2009, 12:52 PM

Just to clarify, the doubled die will include the mint mark from 1990 on as the last punched mintmark on the lincoln cent was 1989

Richard

Hobo · 03-12-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy9

Just to clarify, the doubled die will include the mint mark from 1900 on as the last punched mintmark on the lincoln cent was 1989

Please explain. That confused me more than clarified anything. Did you mean to say "1990" instead of "1900"?

Just Carl · 03-12-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy9

Just to clarify, the doubled die will include the mint mark from 1990 on as the last punched mintmark on the lincoln cent was 1989

Richard

Yes a little confusing statement. I presume this to mean that even the Mint Marks could be doubled prior to 1989. Odd too is I see his post as 1990, not 1900 yet you somehow quoted it as 1900. Now that one confuses me.
Regardless, I suspect we all know what was ment.
Now just how valuable would a 1900 Lincoln Cent be if it were a double die?
And if the Mint mark was doubled, wouldn't that make it even more valuable?

Hobo · 03-12-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Carl

Odd too is I see his post as 1990, not 1900 yet you somehow quoted it as 1900. Now that one confuses me.

Carl,

I quoted him BEFORE he edited his post. If you look closely, after my post he went back and edited his original post. (Look at the time of my post and the time of his edit.)

ziggy9 · 03-12-2009, 02:03 PM

Sorry
typo has been fixed...

ziggy9 · 03-12-2009, 06:58 PM

Boyone little typo and you get Beat to h e double toothpicks :} :} :}

Hobo · 03-12-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy9

Boyone little typo and you get Beat to h e double toothpicks :} :} :}

Sorry, Ziggy. I didn't mean to beat up on ya. I just thought it would be confusing to anyone reading it with the typo, especially someone who is not familiar with die doubling.

To carry Ziggy's thought a bit further - - - Starting around 1990 (different years for different denominations) the Mint ended the practice of adding mintmarks to working dies and added the mintmark to the Master Hub. What does that mean?

The Master Hub is an exact positive image of the coin. It is pressed into a blank die to create a Master Die (a negative image of the coin). The Master Die is used to create Working Hubs (positive image) which are in turn used to make Working Dies (negative image). The Working Dies are used to strike coins.

By adding the mintmark to the Master Hub the Mint no longer has to add mintmarks to Working Dies because the mintmark is present on the Master Hub, Master Dies, Working Hubs and Working Dies.

What does this have to do with doubled dies? A LOT. When mintmarks were added to Working Dies by hand you could have a Doubled Die (created by slight misalignment between squeezes during the hubbing process) and a mintmark that is not doubled. This is because the mintmark was added to the die AFTER the die doubling had occurred.

Today, because the mintmark is a part of the Working Hub, if a Working Die is doubled the mintmark will also be doubled.

Hope this makes sense.

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