xtrmbrdr

I recently picked up an 08 Gold 1/10oz 50y Chinese Panda, graded PCGS MS70/First Strike, it is slabbed, the serial number checks out. I wasn't familiar with the "First Strike" designation, so I did some research and feel I am now at least a little familiar with the situation. I also did some research in regards to the price and it seemed to be competitive.

It was a coin to add to my newborns son's 2008 collection for Valentine's Day. I had to pick it up from the Post Office, so as soon as I got it, I opened it up. Looks good, proof grade......then......what's that, a discoloration??? What's that around the rim???? I noticed a patch of discolored gold , near 5 o clock, and, a symmetrical ring around the coin. The ring appears to be like an in-laided security hieroglyphic.

So, would it be possible to either take a genuine slabbed coin and remove it, and replace it with a like, but lower grade coin, or a counterfeit coin, using the same slab? Or, is it possible to use a counterfeit slab with a lower grade, or counterfeit coin, buy putting it in a counterfeit slab with a matching number?

Fred

PS-I could try and take some pictures, but I don't know that I could get what I describe to show up.

raider34

Pictures would help. I think most people would agree it would be extremely hard to crack open a PCGS case and put a different coin inside, with out it being obvious.

ksparrow

Did you order the coin from Asia? Fake PCGS slabs show up there from time to time, usually containing fake early US coins.

quartertapper

I've read somewhere recently that there were fake Chinese pandas in the market. There are definately counterfiet slabs going around, many look pretty convincing. Gold should not tarnish, so I would definately seek a professional opinion. Either post a couple close-up pictures or bring it in to your local friendly coin dealer.

Just Carl

1. Anything made by humans can be counterfeited. Many companies spend a fortune attempting to stop such counterfeiting.
2. As China and other countries find how gulable people in the US are, the amount of counterfeiting has increased massively.
3. At a coin show a dealer I know rather well showed me a slab of a famous TPG that stated a MS graded Cent. Inside was a really beat Mercury Dime. I could not tell the slab had been tampered with. He did it to show people that YES, it can be done.
4. There are extensive reports of China making many of our valuable coins and since that has been so well advertised, they are now making fake slabs for thier fake coins.
5. Counterfeiting of many products is common. Some countries are nice and change a letter of number on thier fakes. I've seen batteries such as Dinocell, Duricell, Duracl and many others and all are the same colors as Duracell. And carefull buying a camera. There are Nicos, Necons and many others. And if someone offers you a watch with a really famous name for about $30, it cost $17 in China.

davidh

If you have any concerns about it you should simply return it to the seller for refund. I'm sure you could find another example somewhere that would fully meet your expectations.

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GDJMSP

It was recently posted that there have been cases of PCGS slabs that were not sealed before being sent out. In those cases yes a coin could be replaced.

But of much greater concern is that counterfeit PCGS slabs containg counterfeit coins do exist, and in numbers larger than any of us would like. And yes the cert number will check out.

Certain indentifying characteristics of these fake slabs has been published in the numismatic press.

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xtrmbrdr

Here is a photo of the obverse and I believe that it shows the discoloration below the panda in the forefront under his right paw, just above the yen symbol. It also seems to show the ring around the coin. There is also a pie shaped difference in color on the back, which I couldn't get to show up in a photo.

From the research I did this morning, the coin seems to genuine. So, I guess my question now is, would this coin grade at MS70 based on what you see of the ring and discoloration? Otherwise I believe it's at least close, but I don't know much.

I bought this coin on Ebay, from someone with lots of sales and very good feedback, and is in the US.

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GDJMSP

For whatever it is worth there are many known counterfeit silver & gold pandas out there. We will not be able to tell if you coin is fake based on pics. But if you had good clear closeups that showed both sides of the entire slab - we might be able to identify a fake slab. And if the slab is fake, then it is almost certain that the coin is fake as well.

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xtrmbrdr

After the fiasco I had trying to take some pictures with my little point & shoot camera, that has almost no adjustment, this past weekend, I purchased a new dslr, not just for coins, but this weekend was kind of the straw that broke the camels back since I've been kicking around getting a new camera for about 6 months. If I can figure out how to use this thing I'll get some better pictures up tonight.

xtrmbrdr

Not sure why I didn't think of this before, but here are the pictures from ebay of the entire slabed coin. I can see the discoloration under the paw, now, that I am looking for it, so I believe these to be the same coin I received.

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FreakyGarrettC

The cert # is good.

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GDJMSP

The slab appears to be genuine based on what I have seen published.

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xtrmbrdr

Thanks for everyone's feedback and input. It seems kinda scary out there with really good conterfeit coin and slabs, especially for a newbie.

FreakyGarrettC

If you are worried about being taken by buying a fake PCGS slab buy this book. I highly recommend it. It has a whole chapter on fake PCGS slabs. (Thanks again TwoSon! )
http://www.amazon.com/Coin-Collector...4974166&sr=1-1

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"I know it's easy to imagine but it's easier to just do
See, if you can't do what you imagine, then what is imagination to you?
Just a waste of space in your brain, to take the place of hate, or things all the same."