1960d/dlarge date- need help with die rotation error on reverse.

Chuckster 125 · 01-08-2009, 12:58 PM

I posted this coin awhile ago- got it in a package deal on E-bay with other slabbed coins.

When I turned it over, I noticed it has a die rotation error on it.

I contacted NGC about having that also put on the label, and they said it has to be at least 15 degrees off for any attribution.

They want a $20.00 Resubmission fee with no guarantee that it will be off by 15 degrees- if it is not, no additional attribution and no refund.

Based on these pics- is this 15 degrees off?

I tried to measure it with a pro-tractor and keep getting arpound 21 degrees off, but I'm no math wiz at all.

Another thing I noticed is that the Obverse is not placed properly in the holder, Liberty is slighty elevated.

This would make it less off than normal.

When I rotated the front to a level position, the Rev was off a little more .

Thanks for any help on this.

tdec1000 · 01-08-2009, 01:16 PM

I would say no, only 5 to 10 degrees off. Not big enough to even bring a premium. but a very sought after D/D variety.

Carlos Arriaga · 01-08-2009, 01:25 PM

The line of LIBERTY again the last right perpendicular of the edge of this page your coin has 4 Degres in the oberse. And the Bottom line of the building against the right perpendicular of the edge of this page your coin has 7 degres in the reverse. Then the total is 11 degres. Good luck any way in your decision.

grnwavdav · 01-08-2009, 01:28 PM

Nice 1960 D RPM #1. That's one of CONECA's top 100 RPMs! As far as the rotation goes I also think it's not rotated enough to justify resubmitting it. It might be 15 degrees off it's hard to tell.

Treashunt · 01-08-2009, 01:34 PM

save your money.

Chuckster 125 · 01-08-2009, 03:19 PM

Thanks for the help!

I think I'll keep my $20.00- too close to call!

huntsman53 · 01-08-2009, 03:44 PM

Chuckster,

It is really hard to estimate with any accuracy the degree of rotation on your' coin without seeing the entire front and back of the slab! Although the TPG's try to line the coins up in the slab (especially the Obverse unless the Reverse is the focal point), they don't always get them perfectly oriented and sometimes the coin rotates in the slad due to the fit not being tight enough. So, please provide some pictures of the entire front and back of the slab if possible.

There is an easy way to determine Die Rotation if the coin is in a 2x2 but it would be somewhat harder having the coin in a slab. I take a thin piece of clear plastic such as a Document Protector and draw a Degree or Compass Rose on it. I begin with the North thru South lines, East thru West lines and include the line for the split at 45 degrees to 225 degrees and 135 degrees to 315 degrees. Next, I draw North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 Obverse side in relation to the coin's orientation then do the same on the Reverse side of the 2x2. Now lay the 2x2'd coin on top of the thin piece of clear plastic, lining up the North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 with the same on the plastic. You can then either tape the 2x2 to the plastic or hold it very securely and turn the plastic over with the 2x2'd coin attached and see how far the North thru South and East thru West lines on the Reverse side of the 2x2 are off from the same on the plastic. This will give you a very good indicator of how far off the Reverse is from the Obverse in degree rotation.

Frank

Chuckster 125 · 01-08-2009, 05:06 PM

Thanks Frank:

Here are pics of the slab- front and back- this is the best I can get on it without going "Macro and Blurry"

jazzcoins · 01-08-2009, 05:22 PM

[quote=huntsman53;495830]Chuckster,

It is really hard to estimate with any accuracy the degree of rotation on your' coin without seeing the entire front and back of the slab! Although the TPG's try to line the coins up in the slab (especially the Obverse unless the Reverse is the focal point), they don't always get them perfectly oriented and sometimes the coin rotates in the slad due to the fit not being tight enough. So, please provide some pictures of the entire front and back of the slab if possible.

There is an easy way to determine Die Rotation if the coin is in a 2x2 but it would be somewhat harder having the coin in a slab. I take a thin piece of clear plastic such as a Document Protector and draw a Degree or Compass Rose on it. I begin with the North thru South lines, East thru West lines and include the line for the split at 45 degrees to 225 degrees and 135 degrees to 315 degrees. Next, I draw North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 Obverse side in relation to the coin's orientation then do the same on the Reverse side of the 2x2. Now lay the 2x2'd coin on top of the thin piece of clear plastic, lining up the North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 with the same on the plastic. You can then either tape the 2x2 to the plastic or hold it very securely and turn the plastic over with the 2x2'd coin attached and see how far the North thru South and East thru West lines on the Reverse side of the 2x2 are off from the same on the plastic. This will give you a very good indicator of how far off the Reverse is from the Obverse in degree rotation.

Why go to all that trouble buy this

Jazzcoins Joe

davidh · 01-08-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos Arriaga

The line of LIBERTY again the last right perpendicular of the edge of this page your coin has 4 Degres in the oberse. And the Bottom line of the building against the right perpendicular of the edge of this page your coin has 7 degres in the reverse. Then the total is 11 degres. Good luck any way in your decision.

Keep in mind that in the pictures if you rotate the obverse picture clockwise to straighten it out, you're actually rotating the reverse picture counter-clockwise the same amount. Assuming your measurements are accurate, if you rotate the obverse 4 degrees CW to level it, you are rotating the reverse the same amount CCW. If the reverse started off with a 7 degree CW tilt and you rotate it 4 degrees CCW, you'll end up with a 3 degree CW rotation on the reverse.

huntsman53 · 01-08-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by huntsman53

Chuckster,

It is really hard to estimate with any accuracy the degree of rotation on your' coin without seeing the entire front and back of the slab! Although the TPG's try to line the coins up in the slab (especially the Obverse unless the Reverse is the focal point), they don't always get them perfectly oriented and sometimes the coin rotates in the slad due to the fit not being tight enough. So, please provide some pictures of the entire front and back of the slab if possible.

There is an easy way to determine Die Rotation if the coin is in a 2x2 but it would be somewhat harder having the coin in a slab. I take a thin piece of clear plastic such as a Document Protector and draw a Degree or Compass Rose on it. I begin with the North thru South lines, East thru West lines and include the line for the split at 45 degrees to 225 degrees and 135 degrees to 315 degrees. Next, I draw North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 Obverse side in relation to the coin's orientation then do the same on the Reverse side of the 2x2. Now lay the 2x2'd coin on top of the thin piece of clear plastic, lining up the North thru South and East thru West lines on the 2x2 with the same on the plastic. You can then either tape the 2x2 to the plastic or hold it very securely and turn the plastic over with the 2x2'd coin attached and see how far the North thru South and East thru West lines on the Reverse side of the 2x2 are off from the same on the plastic. This will give you a very good indicator of how far off the Reverse is from the Obverse in degree rotation.

Frank

[QUOTE=jazzcoins;495928
Why go to all that trouble buy this

Jazzcoins Joe[/QUOTE]

Jazz,

Maybe because I am cheap! Why pay for something that I can make myself!

Frank

huntsman53 · 01-08-2009, 07:40 PM

Chuckster,

Based on the new pictures (thanks) and the fact that the Obverse of the coin is already rotated about 2 degrees Counter-Clockwise in the slab, I would etimate that the Reverse rotation is only 4 to 5 degrees out from the Obverse!

Frank

rockdude · 01-08-2009, 09:58 PM

I just broke it down simply and it looks to be barely 10 degrees.

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