Drusus

Someone mentioned this grading company so I thought I would go there just to see the website. They have some articles linked from the front page, I read this one and its the typical nonsense... what you see on forums as well when someone comes here looking for advice, instead they get something like this

http://www.stellacoinnews.com/?p=3394

The part I am referring to is this:

These acceptable means of conserving are few in comparison to the hundreds of ways you can clean a coin. However, you should leave all forms of conserving and cleaning of coins to the professionals unless you are certain you know what you are doing. I am not going to tell you how to conserve your coins because unless you really know what you are doing it is not the right thing to do!

This is just inane...at least the person is not just saying 'cleaning coins is bad' but it says 'if you dont know what you are doing, pay a professional' (as if I want to pay any more for this hobby then I already do, especially if I am also paying a TPG like them to encapsulate my coin in plastic). Fair enough but if you know how to do it...why dont you let us know so we can learn right?

Now this would be a great place to TELL people how it is done so they CAN learn how to do it and then they WILL know what they are doing...offer real useful info. Pass on truly valuable knowledge that could help the collector save money and DIY...instead this person follows up by saying:

"I am not going to tell you how to conserve your coins because unless you really know what you are doing it is not the right thing to do!"

How are people supposed to LEARN how to do it and know what they are doing if you dont share the knowledge with them on how to do it!!! Its just stupidity. This person could haves time and effort by just not bothering to write this as it passes on 0 knowledge... He just gives the standard response that you could find on any forum...all he is saying is what most people say to anyone who comes seeking REAL information and advice. Instead of helping the person they just say 'dont do it...pay someone else to do it...' thats all this guy had to write...

I am thinking of putting up a section on my website with every type of CONSERVATION technique spelling out what to do in the most minute detail. Every time I find out a new one, post it and rate it...I think if people truly want to help fellow collectors they will share this info if they know it.

I know that some of these TPGs do wonders with old ratty coins, I have still yet to uncover much of what they do and they certainly wont reveal these techniques themselves because its not about helping, its about getting...this information should be there for all to read.

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borgovan

I agree with you to a degree, and I would definitely look forward to viewing this information on your site.

Most people don't know what they're doing, and I think the message of "don't clean your coins" is just put forth to protect our numismatic treasures. I don't want a guy to read on a site "Yeah, I clean my coins by dipping them in x acid", because he may not understand that that's what we do with silver coins only, and he may do it with his 1794 half cent. Also, stuff like "a quick dip" might mean 30 seconds to him, where it should only be two seconds.

I suppose if the information were detailed enough, the general public could find it useful, but I would still be a little worried.

Drusus

I agree it would need to be detailed...and one should probably warn the person to practice on a coin that they can stand to lose. I dont think its valid to withhold info on the grounds of protecting coins...the coins belong to that person who owns them, they are more likely to harm them trying something without help than if they are given the info along with a warning to test it out first and dont go right into cleaning a rare and valuable coin until you are more confident. IMO you are doing more harm than good NOT giving them the correct info. You are forcing them to wade through unreliable scattered info and trial and error.

I simply will not pay someone to conserve a coin so sharing the info on how to do it correctly is being a much bigger help than 95% of the topics discussed on most forums.

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coinblogger

I think that borgovan hit the nail on the head. The reason why everyone says don't do it is because they don't want to see coins unnecessarily ruined. It is safer for the hobby to just say don't do it.

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Cloudsweeper99

I think if I was in a business and part of my revenue stream was the result of proprietary techniques, I'd be reluctant to share them. I don't see anything wrong with companies keeping silent about conservation techniques, and I don't see anything wrong with collectors trying to find out what those techniques are and sharing them as long as they aren't patented.

Drusus

I dont think that is the reason people say dont do it...again...do you think a person telling a collector to keep his coin filthy with dirt and grime is going to keep the guy from cleaning it? I dont. I think by telling him not to, you just sent a guy off to try it without any help and now he is far more likely to ruin a coin...so this reason makes little sense to me...Isnt this a forum for sharing information about coins? Not keeping info a secret for our own good and the good of someone elses coins? I seriously doubt people fear for the coins of others so much that they keep it a secret for their own good.

Like with Bronze Disease...by not telling a person how to remove it, you are actually ruining the coin as BD will destroy a coin...but it seems to me, there are few if any collectors here who know how to remove it...

Wouldnt it make much more sense to talk the guy through it? make sure he did it right? Give him good detailed advice? like testing the procedure before cleaning a highly valuable coin? Wouldnt wise detailed advice from someone who knows what they are talking about see far less coins ruined? Like GD says...knowledge...share it. No..I dont think thats why at all.

I think its because they dont have real advice to give...I bet 95% or more of the people here havent a clue themselves how to conserve a coin properly so they just say live with it.

I agree with cloudsweeper, people who want to make money off collectors certainly have a right and a good reason not to give up the information...and I have a right to not only try to find out how they do it but pass it on if I find it...in the end if it is using common chemicals and techniques one could develop and discover on your own...I see no reason why I shouldnt post them for all.

The problem is, I just dont think there are many people who are WILLING to share these techniques...they profit from us not knowing.

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GDJMSP

You're right Dru - I say knowledge .... share it. But there is some knowledge that should not be shared. Like explaining in minute detail how to alter a mint mark or how to take very misleading pics of a coin so you can dupe somebody out of more money than the coin is worth.

And whether or not you think the reason for not posting info on how to clean coins is to keep inexperienced paople from screwing up a coin - that is the reason.

Most people aren't like you Dru. They will not take the time to learn how to do something properly. They just read the directions and go ahead and try it out.

How is this known ? Past experience - it happens.

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borgovan

Drusus: "the coins belong to that person who owns them."

I disagree with this statement. I mean, sure, legally it's true, but it's not the attitude that should be taken by numismatists. I believe that ethically we are charged with being conservators.

If I bought the five 1913 Liberty nickels, and melted down four of them, it would be sinful.

If I bought the Mona Lisa and used a sharpie to put a moustache on it, I should be flogged.

We can own property legally, but morally we should take a higher stance. Personally, I view myself as a custodian of the coins until such time as I give them to someone else. After all, I can't take them with me. Isn't it right of me to leave them behind in good condition?

Cloudsweeper99

I would say the exact opposite. Morally, we can own property -- or as John Locke defined it, "life, liberty and estates" meaning property. This is an inalienable right. Legally, we can sell or donate our property to whomever we choose, or conserve or destroy it as it suits us. In extreme cases where the public good prevails over private ownership, there are laws permitting the state to take the property for fair compensation. Coins probably don't fall into that category.

borgovan

Cloudsweeper99: You're right...they don't fall into that category. But you're talking about the legal aspect, which I don't dispute. I, too, believe that this is an inalienable right, but to exercise our "rights" doesn't mean that it's "right."

Believe me...nobody believes in the rights of personal property more than I do, but I'm not talking about legal rights. I'm talking about a greater good.

We "own" things only in the respect that we have physical possession of them, backed by the laws of the state, as long as we are here. Nobody can take these physical goods with them beyond this life. They must remain here. And, as long as we are blessed with this gift, we ought to do our best to preserve it.

That's just one man's beliefs.

Will I tell you that you should feel the same way? Yes.
Can I force you to act in the same manner? No.
Will I attempt to force you to believe what I believe? No.

You may do as you wish. But, if you destroy that which can be left to the next generation, I personally think it's shameful.

Boss

I am in the middle on this. I generally agree with Dru on this subject but there are plently of fools who will get sloppy and screw up coins by not thoroughly educating themselves. I consider myself pretty studious and anal, picky and very detail oriented. I have messed up a few coins I wish I didn't- $20-30 dollar coins, but older coins nontheless. This is a tricky arguement. Someone like myself will do whatever it takes to get the most accurate knowledge. Others will read a little and do it half wrong and half right. Others will just screw it up. I think most people who are into coins are generally pretty detail oriented and if they get on these sites regularly they are pretty into the whole thing. I lean more toward providing accurate info and really emphasizing practicing on low value stuff. I learned about using a rose thorn to remove grime and I am quite good at it now. I got that off of another website. I was using a toothpick and messed up those few coins I referenced. I did it anyway but with the wrong tools. Got the right info and now know how to do it right. I know that sounds totally crazy, but I will not leave junk on my coin- it's ugly and can be damaging depending on what it is. Dru is 100% right here. BD will jack up your coppers. It's got to go. By the way this guy Bad Thad sells this stuff called VERDIGONE which I bought and used and it works well for verdigris. Doug has also recommend BIOX which I have not used can get it here, as well as concentrated hydrogen peroxide, etc.. : http://www.dirtyoldcoins.com. I do think Copper is difficult and you need a chemistry background or some basic chemsitry knowledge to be very successful at good conservation. I suppose that's why people like Doug and many others say don't do it. For me I don't listen to that, but maybe many should because perhaps you (Dru) and I are not typical in this regards. I don't really know

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Pocket Change

This thread also highlights why MS coins go for a premium. There were x number of them made and every day, people are lowering their population numbers by stupid handling, mistakes and bad cleaning/dipping/etc.

It's interesting that there is another thread right now about how to take coins out of a 2x2. Simple - it seems, but I've ruined a coin or two doing that.

Knowledge. Yes, even in the case of 2x2's, it had never occured to me to cut out the cello window - I always fooled around with the staples.

So to paraphrase Drusus' original proposition: "I am not going to tell you how to take your coins out of 2x2's because unless you really know what you are doing it is not the right thing to do!"

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Drusus

I just disagree with you GD but thats not new...I think people dont tell people how to properly conserve a coin 95% of the time because they simply dont know how to do it themselves, so they just say dont do it instead of say 'I dont know'. I dont think they have some higher morality towards coins owned by someone else...and if that IS the reason then they are fooling themselves that they are somehow stopping someone from ruining a coin...I can completely understand why one would not pass on how to doctor a coin and other such practices...but to knowingly withhold REAL helpful info on how to CONSERVE a coin... on a website that is supposed to be here to help the collector...with an admin whose tag line is 'knowledge...share it...' is ironic. Again, maybe most here just dont have that knowledge to share....

Most people arent like me? You must have read me wrong. I have ruined quite a few LRB and common world coins trying things...trial and error...if someone had just been open and honest and helpful then I might have succeeded in getting those coins cleaned without ruining them. Of course these coins were only worth about 2-3 bucks a piece but to me they are pieces of history and if I did not have to test things out myself and instead had a person who was willing to take the time and walk me through it, they might have been saved...I believe most people will be this way...so if you think you are saving coins by WITHHOLDING helpful info, you arent. The coins I am talking about are coins that were in the ground for many years, coins with BD, or coins that were simply stored improperly and had gunk and filth on them...these things are not good for a coin, if left on the coin, they will ruin them and only by proper cleaning could a collector help these coins...and by withholding the info you are now saying you will not help save a coin...is that helping save coins? Not at all...

It boggles my mind sometimes how people think...instead of helping a person and giving them advice you send them out to learn it on their own through trial and error and you think you are saving coins!!!

I have some highly valuable and rare coins but because of how some of them were stored many have needed attention. I CAN say I did nothing to these coins that would harm them or ruin them but because I was forced to try and develop my own methods, lesser coins (still ancients and cool world coins, but much poorer quality) were ruined as I tried all the bad advice given on websites like vinegar paste, electrolysis and the like. These coins were ruined because of people who refused to give advice..but more likely in most cases, they had no real advice to give.

Anyway...I started my page yesterday, if anyone has any good information concerning how to properly conserve coins like the pro's, PM me or go to my website and e-mail me, or god forbid post them here on a forum that is supposed to be here to help the collector... and I will give you credit if you like. This saving people from themselves attitude and the assumption that people are stupid, the 'most people dont realize / know' or speaking for all collectors nonsense is just that...but maybe I just have a higher opinion of people than some and I think that if they are able to do something right, if given the right info...they will...and withholding information that will help people conserve coins on a coin site is crazy and counter productive and going against what this site is supposed to be about....thanks

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spock1k

here are my 2 cents for the people who ask me for advice. dont clean our coins its not worth it. leave it to the experts. its not worth taking a chance to ruin them. Dru and i disagree completely on this. The way you dont fly a plane you sit in, the same way you dont clean coins you own. Do the smart thing dont buy problem coins that need cleaning. If you inherit a collection of problem coins and you know nothing about coins talk to an expert on cleaning here and if you are not interested in learning then get rid of the coins.

As much as we would like to think everyone is a super specialized cleaning expert on coins we are not and neither do we need to be to enjoy the hobby. Be safe be smart avoid problem coins and store them properly so they dont develop problems and if you feel like being Dilton Doiley experiment on cheap coins first or read Dr Spock.

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Drusus

In other words...I have no real advice to give or help to offer on the subject because I dont know how to do it myself...so I say dont do it. This advice is from a guy who told a new member who said he cleaned a coin: 'any value the coin had was lost when you cleaned it'...this is before he knew how it was cleaned or even saw a photo of the coin

Spock...werent you here asking for advice on how to remove Bronze Disease from a coin just recently? Why didnt you just send that sucker out to be professionally conserved instead of looking to do it yourself? Not following your own advice I guess Wouldnt it have been nice if someone who knew exactly what to do had helped you with clear step by step instructions?

Your analogy doesnt float...If I wanted to learn how to fly a plane I would and there are people out there who would teach me (not to mention plenty of information out there to learn from). This is a hobby, my boss flies planes for a hobby, I collect coins, if people want to DIY, why discourage them if they are taking the time to try to learn how to do it right? Oh well...same old song

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