Article linked from DGS: Typical nonsense - Page 2

Drusus · 01-08-2009, 10:37 AM

In other words...I have no real advice to give or help to offer on the subject because I dont know how to do it myself...so I say dont do it. This advice is from a guy who told a new member who said he cleaned a coin: 'any value the coin had was lost when you cleaned it'...this is before he knew how it was cleaned or even saw a photo of the coin

Spock...werent you here asking for advice on how to remove Bronze Disease from a coin just recently? Why didnt you just send that sucker out to be professionally conserved instead of looking to do it yourself? Not following your own advice I guess

Wouldnt it have been nice if someone who knew exactly what to do had helped you with clear step by step instructions?

Your analogy doesnt float...If I wanted to learn how to fly a plane I would and there are people out there who would teach me (not to mention plenty of information out there to learn from). This is a hobby, my boss flies planes for a hobby, I collect coins, if people want to DIY, why discourage them if they are taking the time to try to learn how to do it right? Oh well...same old song

spock1k · 01-08-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

In other words...I have no real advice to give or help to offer on the subject because I dont know how to do it myself...so I say dont do it. This advice is from a guy who told a new member who said he cleaned a coin: 'any value the coin had was lost when you cleaned it'...this is before he knew how it was cleaned or even saw a photo of the coin

Spock...werent you here asking for advice on how to remove Bronze Disease from a coin just recently? Why didnt you just send that sucker out to be professionally conserved instead of looking to do it yourself? Not following your own advice I guess

Wouldnt it have been nice if someone who knew exactly what to do had helped you with clear step by step instructions?

Your analogy doesnt float...If I wanted to learn how to fly a plane I would and there are people out there who would teach me (not to mention plenty of information out there to learn from). This is a hobby, my boss flies planes for a hobby, I collect coins, if people want to DIY, why discourage them if they are taking the time to try to learn how to do it right? Oh well...same old song

Drusus perhaps I have misjudged your knowledge of coins or perhaps you just want people to damage their coins. For your information i have more expertise on conservation then I care to brag about since i dont need to. but since you are always in a self righteous mood you keep taking potshots on some other members and me. Many time i have heard you making that remark again and again but coming from a guy who doesnt understand when people mention cleaning whether it is harsh cleaning or cleaning it is to be expected. Till now you havent had the guts to admit that you didnt know anythign about the coin or the series you blatantly tell people to clean coins.

Its really sad to see that when people have a different opinion then you it gets your goat and you start attacking the person. Maybe because of guilty conscience r an inferiority complex? I was asking for member opinions on verdigris removal because those coins were not WORTH sending to NCS. If those coins were worth sending to NCS i would have done that but you cant see it because according to you everyone must learn to self conserve and NCS should not exist. No matter what anyone told me i would not risk a 4 figure coin by conserving it myself. I leave that to professionals.

New collectors will damage their coins if they clean it themselves. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you have never damaged a coin due to cleaning. You might not like the answer. instead of twisting old posts and getting personal if you are so unhappy about the situation go do something constructive.

Ayways you have a right to your opinion and i have right to mine and I would encourage everyone to find out what the best practice is. the taste of the pudding is in the eating not the ranting.

Drusus · 01-08-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

Drusus perhaps I have misjudged your knowledge of coins or perhaps you just want people to damage their coins. .

Absurd statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

For your information I have more expertise on conservation then I care to brag about since I dont need to.

If you have all this great amount of info and you dont share it to help others, shame on you. You have a chance to offer real help and valuable information to help people conserve their coins and you withhold it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

Many time i have heard you making that remark again and again but coming from a guy who doesnt understand when people mention cleaning whether it is harsh cleaning or cleaning it is to be expected.

If people tell others not to clean coins, especial new members and they do not say 'harshly'...it is completely moronic to expect people to ASSUME you mean harsh cleaning...you need to learn to communicate effectively if you wish to offer advice. I have seen you say...sight unseen...that if you cleaned a coin, you took away all its value...you would never admit you said something stupid, I know that...but you should actually find out how the person cleaned the coin or even SEE it before make such a statement...how is a new collector supposed to know you mean HARSH cleaning when all you say is DONT CLEAN COINS....

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

I was asking for member opinions on verdigris removal because those coins were not WORTH sending to NCS. If those coins were worth sending to NCS i would have done that but you cant see it because according to you everyone must learn to self conserve and NCS should not exist. No matter what anyone told me i would not risk a 4 figure coin by conserving it myself. I leave that to professionals..

so you know so much about coin conservation but dont know how to remove BD...I see...Again...you were asking for help to conserve a coin...you dont want to handle the conservation on expensive coins...thats fine for you...how will a new collector learn to even help conserve their cheap coins, or learn these techniques at all if NO ONE WILL TELL THEM. I guess we should all just bite the bullet and pay for even the cheapest coins to be conserved or let them rot right? Great way of saving coins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

New collectors will damage their coins if they clean it themselves. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself if you have never damaged a coin due to cleaning. You might not like the answer. instead of twisting old posts and getting personal if you are so unhappy about the situation go do something constructive. ..

So you are saying new collectors are just too stupid to follow directions on how to clean a coin, they all will simply damage coins if trusted with the oh so difficult procedures on how to do even the simplest conservation and cleaning? Unlike you I dont pre-judge peoples ability to follow directions and would rather help them and not send them off without any REAL advice...THEN they will damage coins...If a new collector is GIVEN GOOD ADVICE then why would you say they will harm them...are people just lazy and dont want to help them to make sure they dont damage the coin? I have a feeling, like I said before...most here have no real advice to give.

Again, you seem not to even read posts before responding. I have said, in this thread, that I HAVE ruined coins trying to clean them...why? because I had no one to help me, just a bunch a people saying 'dont clean coins'. If they had offered advice, I am smart enough to follow it...instead I get some person telling me I should just be happy with a dirty, sticky, filthy coin. If people in the know had taken the time to spell it out for me, I am bright enough to follow instructions and I could have done it...instead I had to use TRIAL and ERROR and I ruined coins doing it...

I never twisted your words...it was a direct quote. I am not a fool, I can read...

If your opinion is not to tell people how to clean coins as you sit on a wealth of information on the subject...what else is there for you to say here? I can get that advice 10 times a day from people who either do not know how, or dont want to take the time to help. I am looking to do something about it...I am looking to put up a page with GOOD advice on conservation of coins with warnings and best and worst techniques...I am looking for people WHO ACTUALLY KNOW how to conserve coins and know advanced methods to contribute...If you have so much knowledge on the subject...PM me and spell it out...I wont hold my breath though. Otherwise you are just sitting on the information and refusing to help your fellow collector, I wont bicker with you about this...If we are here to HELP we should.

spock1k · 01-09-2009, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

Absurd statement.

If you have all this great amount of info and you dont share it to help others, shame on you. You have a chance to offer real help and valuable information to help people conserve their coins and you withhold it.

If people tell others not to clean coins, especial new members and they do not say 'harshly'...it is completely moronic to expect people to ASSUME you mean harsh cleaning...you need to learn to communicate effectively if you wish to offer advice. I have seen you say...sight unseen...that if you cleaned a coin, you took away all its value...you would never admit you said something stupid, I know that...but you should actually find out how the person cleaned the coin or even SEE it before make such a statement...how is a new collector supposed to know you mean HARSH cleaning when all you say is DONT CLEAN COINS....

so you know so much about coin conservation but dont know how to remove BD...I see...Again...you were asking for help to conserve a coin...you dont want to handle the conservation on expensive coins...thats fine for you...how will a new collector learn to even help conserve their cheap coins, or learn these techniques at all if NO ONE WILL TELL THEM. I guess we should all just bite the bullet and pay for even the cheapest coins to be conserved or let them rot right? Great way of saving coins.

So you are saying new collectors are just too stupid to follow directions on how to clean a coin, they all will simply damage coins if trusted with the oh so difficult procedures on how to do even the simplest conservation and cleaning? Unlike you I dont pre-judge peoples ability to follow directions and would rather help them and not send them off without any REAL advice...THEN they will damage coins...If a new collector is GIVEN GOOD ADVICE then why would you say they will harm them...are people just lazy and dont want to help them to make sure they dont damage the coin? I have a feeling, like I said before...most here have no real advice to give.

Again, you seem not to even read posts before responding. I have said, in this thread, that I HAVE ruined coins trying to clean them...why? because I had no one to help me, just a bunch a people saying 'dont clean coins'. If they had offered advice, I am smart enough to follow it...instead I get some person telling me I should just be happy with a dirty, sticky, filthy coin. If people in the know had taken the time to spell it out for me, I am bright enough to follow instructions and I could have done it...instead I had to use TRIAL and ERROR and I ruined coins doing it...

I never twisted your words...it was a direct quote. I am not a fool, I can read...

If your opinion is not to tell people how to clean coins as you sit on a wealth of information on the subject...what else is there for you to say here? I can get that advice 10 times a day from people who either do not know how, or dont want to take the time to help. I am looking to do something about it...I am looking to put up a page with GOOD advice on conservation of coins with warnings and best and worst techniques...I am looking for people WHO ACTUALLY KNOW how to conserve coins and know advanced methods to contribute...If you have so much knowledge on the subject...PM me and spell it out...I wont hold my breath though. Otherwise you are just sitting on the information and refusing to help your fellow collector, I wont bicker with you about this...If we are here to HELP we should.

Drusus as i said before dont be so thick headed there is no harm in admitting you are wrong. Instead of crying shame shame look at what you are doing destroying people coins with your thick headed rants that really is shameful.

Secondly you have twisted my posts but at least I am glad that the other members on the forum can see it and call a spade a spade. You have not responded to my question about whether you have damaged coins or not because you really cant or you will be exposed because even people at NCS say they might end up runing your coins and there is no such thing as 100% conservation but you are not ready to accept it. Once you put a page we will know how many coins you destroyed just because you were obstinate.

Ask any senior member of the forum no one in their right minds will give instructions to newbies to clean coins. Why? for reasons that rlm, AJ, GD have pointed time and again. The key here is right mind though. You keep using the word fool for yourself one time too many. As i said getting personal and ranting is not going to get you anywhere.

Drusus · 01-09-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock1k

Secondly you have twisted my posts but at least I am glad that the other members on the forum can see it and call a spade a spade. You have not responded to my question about whether you have damaged coins or not because you really cant or you will be exposed.

Spock, I have never twisted a post of yours, I quoted you EXACTLY. I refuse to bicker with you anymore...especially since you are not even reading what I am saying...I have now said TWICE in this thread that I have ruined coins attempting to clean them:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

Again, you seem not to even read posts before responding. I have said, in this thread, that I HAVE ruined coins trying to clean them...why? because I had no one to help me, just a bunch a people saying 'dont clean coins'. If they had offered advice, I am smart enough to follow it...instead I get some person telling me I should just be happy with a dirty, sticky, filthy coin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

I have some highly valuable and rare coins but because of how some of them were stored many have needed attention. I CAN say I did nothing to these coins that would harm them or ruin them but because I was forced to try and develop my own methods, lesser coins (still ancients and cool world coins, but much poorer quality) were ruined as I tried all the bad advice given on websites like vinegar paste, electrolysis and the like. These coins were ruined because of people who refused to give advice..but more likely in most cases, they had no real advice to give.

I am exposed!!! I have never said I am an expert conservator which is why I would like to compile this information as it would also help me.

Apparently I am almost alone in my wish to help gather this information and make it accessable to all. So I give up, I honestly dnt want to spend my time bickering.

BTW...on the cyanide comment...I burn dies with nitric and hydrocloric acid mixtures...no problems yet...Its not rocket science, they are proceedures that obviously can be taught and learned. People say they dont think people should have this info because they will ruin coins trying, but also seem to admit that they try to anyway and ruin coins...its obvious to me that some detailed instruction might help those smart enough to follow them and SAVE a few coins that otherwise would have been ruined....

Again, I have a feeling the lions share of the people here havent a clue or advice to give on the subject anyway...just going to spend time bickering about grading or TPGs or how to hold a coin or pointing out bad ebay sellers.

I honestly do not want people to ruin their coins...the idea is just absurd. I do regret starting this thread I guess, I should have known what the outcome would have been. Thanks

rlm's cents · 01-08-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

Now this would be a great place to TELL people how it is done so they CAN learn how to do it and then they WILL know what they are doing...offer real useful info. Pass on truly valuable knowledge that could help the collector save money and DIY...instead this person follows up by saying:

"I am not going to tell you how to conserve your coins because unless you really know what you are doing it is not the right thing to do!"

How are people supposed to LEARN how to do it and know what they are doing if you dont share the knowledge with them on how to do it!!! Its just stupidity. This person could haves time and effort by just not bothering to write this as it passes on 0 knowledge... He just gives the standard response that you could find on any forum...all he is saying is what most people say to anyone who comes seeking REAL information and advice. Instead of helping the person they just say 'dont do it...pay someone else to do it...' thats all this guy had to write...

"How are people supposed to learn" - they are not - unless they want to spend the time to teach themselves. These people's job depends on cleaning coins for others. Telling everyone how they do their job is exactly how to assure that they no longer have a job.

BTW, assuring that they are successful at their job is just how to assure that their "science" prospers and advances. With that, they will have the money and incentive to develop more and better means to improve their business - means above and beyond the individuals ability.

Drusus · 01-08-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlm's cents

"How are people supposed to learn" - they are not - unless they want to spend the time to teach themselves. These people's job depends on cleaning coins for others. Telling everyone how they do their job is exactly how to assure that they no longer have a job.

BTW, assuring that they are successful at their job is just how to assure that their "science" prospers and advances. With that, they will have the money and incentive to develop more and better means to improve their business - means above and beyond the individuals ability.

I dont know the guy who posted that article but it doesnt say he is a professional conservator...he says he DOES know how to conserve coins but has just decided not to tell people how...his reasoning is that people shouldnt do it themselves if they dont know how...of course they wont know how if no one tells them, or like you say, they develop the techniques themselves which would require trial and error and possibly ruining coins. Unlike many here, people who do it professionally could care less if you ruin your coins trying, they just want to get paid...this being a hobby for me, one I would like to spend as little money as possible on anything other than coins, I want to avoid paying.

He says nothing about protecting trade secrets...of course I have said I completely understand why people who do this for a living will never tell as they want you to pay THEM to do it.

But as Spock points out, there are often situations where a coins worth is low but you still would like to save it and one cannot justify the price to have it professionally done and it would be nice to be able to save the coin. So I would like to compile a page or two to help people do it themselves.

This is a common thing...There is a wealth of info out there to help people do it yourself. You can go and have a carpenter build you a work bench...or you can get a 'how to' book and build one yourself...I want to offer a how to for those who would like to save themselves money.

I fixed electric sockets and plumbing in my house myself with detailed how to instructions I got on the internet as well as building a real nice sturdy work table in the same way...I could have paid others but instead did it myself with no problem...none of those people decided to withhold information on how to do these things simply because they felt people were too stupid and would ruin their plumbing or electrocute themselves...probably because they gave detailed step by step instructions with warnings....

So I understand why a plumber wont tell me how to fix my plumbing...but there were enough people who figured out how to fix pluming and electricity to inform DIY people how to do it. Someone who knows these techniques and DOESNT do it professionally could help collectors save money and help us save old dirty coins...They either wont...or people just dont know how.

spock1k · 01-09-2009, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlm's cents

"How are people supposed to learn" - they are not - unless they want to spend the time to teach themselves. These people's job depends on cleaning coins for others. Telling everyone how they do their job is exactly how to assure that they no longer have a job.

BTW, assuring that they are successful at their job is just how to assure that their "science" prospers and advances. With that, they will have the money and incentive to develop more and better means to improve their business - means above and beyond the individuals ability.

I agree but some people are so thick headed they cant even figure this out.

borgovan · 01-08-2009, 02:59 PM

Drusus, as stated before, I agree with you.

I wonder, though, how one might go about educating a non-coin-collector about what needs to be removed and what doesn't.

I've seen innumerable posts about people who say their Morgan dollars are "tarnished", and they want to scrub off or use acid to remove the tarnish, when what they're really talking about is what a collector would deem to be attractive toning.

To partially answer my own question, I suppose you could post a couple of dozen examples of coins with stuff that should be removed and stuff that shouldn't...

Drusus · 01-08-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borgovan

Drusus, as stated before, I agree with you.

I wonder, though, how one might go about educating a non-coin-collector about what needs to be removed and what doesn't.

I've seen innumerable posts about people who say their Morgan dollars are "tarnished", and they want to scrub off or use acid to remove the tarnish, when what they're really talking about is what a collector would deem to be attractive toning.

To partially answer my own question, I suppose you could post a couple of dozen examples of coins with stuff that should be removed and stuff that shouldn't...

exactly...post the do's and donts...examples...before and after shots if you can...warn them of the good ways and the bad ways....

do you have bright green deposits that seem powdery? YES REMOVE IMMEDIATLY...this is what you need to do!!

The silver coin is a bit dark? Probably not a good idea to try and remove it...thats toning and unless its dark black its good to have toned silver on old circulated coins in the coin world...if its dark black...here is how to thin the tone with out completely removing it...then tell them how to store the coin so that the nice tone doesnt turn dark black...things like this...Have it all in one spot so when someone comes asking you can link them there and even suggest what part relates to them.

Think of it as a 'DIY how too...' site...like any other DIY instructional site out there...but for coins.

I have started a page and will put what I know on there and with hope people will also have some info they can contribute and maybe we can put together a real useful page.

I dont want to bicker with people or insult anyone with this thread...its just that 'dont clean coins' is the standard response everyone gets and its not what this thread is about. Its about putting together a resource that will help people.

In the end...My first advice would always be...if it dont need cleaning...dont clean it.

**GDJMSP** · 01-08-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus

In the end...My first advice would always be...if it dont need cleaning...dont clean it.

While your intentions are admirable, that's the whole problem Dru. You go find me 1 newbie - just 1 - that doesn't want their coins to look all bright and shiny.

I mean the proof of this is all but indisputable. How many times have we read the question just here on this forum alone ? How many times have we heard the stories or comments like - I got them all cleaned up now, they look so much better.

And that's the point that was made earlier. Beginners, and even many collectors who have been around a while, if they had such a resource, would go right ahead and clean coins that do not need cleaning. And I would bet that they would not practice on junk until they got good at it. They would just go ahead and attempt to clean them. And almost certainly doing harm.

Now, something else - you disagree with my statement above, I realize that. But think about this, how many sources are there out there that tell people, over and over and over again - do not buy coins until you learn about them first ! I mean you can't go anywhere on the net and not find that advice. You cannot pick up a book on coins and not find that advice.

Now how many people can you think of that follow it ? Just about 0.

rlm's cents · 01-08-2009, 03:39 PM

Drusus,
Just what trade secrets does your local plumber have? How about a little closer analogy. Why shouldn't pfizer release their manufacturing procedures for viagra so we can all make our own?

BTW, you would be surprised how many areas (both places in your house and regions of the country) there are where you are not allowed to fix your plumbing yourself at least without the proper inspection. Electrical work is even more restrictive. You say that does not compare to cleaning your coins - one of the methods for cleaning is with cyanide. I would a lot rather have my neighbors playing with their plumbing than cyanide.

Frankcoins.com · 01-09-2009, 01:47 AM

You can follow written instructions, but until you become experienced in safely cleaning coins, you will ruin a lot of them in the learning process. How quick is a "quick" dip...How gently is "gently"? I have 40 years experience and still run into coins that I tried to conserve and wish I had left alone..."Let a professional do it" is very sound advice.

Arizona Jack · 01-09-2009, 02:49 AM

Last post of the night.

C'mon Drusus. Look at your avatar and your interest and your threads. There is a HUGE differance in cleaning up an ancient digger or a Roman found in a bulk box at a show, than there is a 1921 Merc dime or a 1914-
S Lincoln.

Ancients? Cleaning might be the norm, but in the 200+year old USA coinage, it's not so acceptable. Preservation in one thing, but a newbie with a wire brush and Biox can do damage to any US coin.

I can advocate dipping, scrubbing, baking, toning, heating, buzzing, whizzing to all newbies, but only as an exercise in learning, and only with pocket change or the generic rolls of buffalos or wheats. Learn, see, do.......all good things.

There is a line tho.

spock1k · 01-09-2009, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankcoins.com

You can follow written instructions, but until you become experienced in safely cleaning coins, you will ruin a lot of them in the learning process. How quick is a "quick" dip...How gently is "gently"? I have 40 years experience and still run into coins that I tried to conserve and wish I had left alone..."Let a professional do it" is very sound advice.

I agree but some here think that no we all must be incompetent in some way or we never got the right instructions from the experts otherwise we would have never damaged a coin. I am sure if we do it for another 40 or so years we might just get the experience.

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