Enough arguing! A Different Look at Grading - Page 2

mikenoodle · 01-04-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

OK - can you tell me what vested interest in value that NGC or PCGS has ? They could care less what the coin is worth - it makes no difference to them. They get paid the same amount to slab a coin if the coin is worth $10 or $100,000.

If it is PCGS' "opinion" on their case that helps determine the value of the coin, then they play a large part and have a HUGE interest in what the coin sells for in many ways. Not the least of which is their perceived brand in th marketplace based on the consistency of their grades and the acceptance of said grades in the marketplace.

Why would they create registry sets if not to influence the submission (and subsequent resubmission) of coins in large numbers?

**GDJMSP** · 01-04-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikenoodle

If it is PCGS' "opinion" on their case that helps determine the value of the coin, then they play a large part and have a HUGE interest in what the coin sells for in many ways. Not the least of which is their perceived brand in th marketplace based on the consistency of their grades and the acceptance of said grades in the marketplace.

Why would they create registry sets if not to influence the submission (and subsequent resubmission) of coins in large numbers?

I didn't say that PCGS and NGC didn't play a part in determining the value of a coin. I said they do not have a vested interest in what the value of a given coin is. That is what you said -

Quote:

I was suggesting a grading system that is NOT run by people with a vested interest in value

Your comment implies that the TPG's stand to make money by assigning a higher grade to a coin. I am pointing out to you that they do not. It doesn't matter if the assigned grade is AG3 or MS68 - they get paid the same amount of money in both cases. In other words - value has no meaning to them. So they cannot have a vested interest in value.

mikenoodle · 01-04-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

Your comment implies that the TPG's stand to make money by assigning a higher grade to a coin. I am pointing out to you that they do not. It doesn't matter if the assigned grade is AG3 or MS68 - they get paid the same amount of money in both cases. In other words - value has no meaning to them. So they cannot have a vested interest in value.

I think you have to look no further than to gradflation in this case. As too many coins are graded in TPG holders, the grading standards get relaxed, and the whole process starts over again, so although I don't think it is quite black and white, I will grant you the point you were making. Theoretically the grade on the slab is irrelevant to them as long as more coins continue to be graded.

But factually the market can't even agree on the grade under the TPGs system, or we wouldn't have stickers on slabs.

6StepStucky · 01-07-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikenoodle

If it is PCGS' "opinion" on their case that helps determine the value of the coin, then they play a large part and have a HUGE interest in what the coin sells for in many ways. Not the least of which is their perceived brand in th marketplace based on the consistency of their grades and the acceptance of said grades in the marketplace.

Why would they create registry sets if not to influence the submission (and subsequent resubmission) of coins in large numbers?

This has two questions first;
Just a small point of interest: The 1893S Jack Lee MS67 Morgan Dollar...why does PCGS have this coin valued at 1,000,000.00? Because at auction, it sold for all the money. I believe a lot of time goes into the values PCGS uses based on experience, knowledge, what a coin sold for at auction, and through various groups and individuals assistance. I don't think they pull numbers out of the air. I used this coin because of its value. I could have very well have used the name Bernard A. Nagengast who is an expert in his field who works along with the TGP’s assuring the information used to validate a coins value is based on facts. I was given this information through direct communications with him.
Second question:
I believe they offer registry sets online for the collector. I believe there are some collectors that want the "BEST" and here is a way to show what they have that's better or what needs to be improved as well as create a need for their service and product.

mikenoodle · 01-07-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6StepStucky

This has two questions first;
Just a small point of interest: The 1893S Jack Lee MS67 Morgan Dollar...why does PCGS have this coin valued at 1,000,000.00? Because at auction, it sold for all the money. I believe a lot of time goes into the values PCGS uses based on experience, knowledge, what a coin sold for at auction, and through various groups and individuals assistance. I don't think they pull numbers out of the air. I used this coin because of its value. I could have very well have used the name Bernard A. Nagengast who is an expert in his field who works along with the TGP’s assuring the information used to validate a coins value is based on facts. I was given this information through direct communications with him.
Second question:
I believe they offer registry sets online for the collector. I believe there are some collectors that want the "BEST" and here is a way to show what they have that's better or what needs to be improved as well as create a need for their service and product.

Stucky I am trying to seperate value from grade, as I think that value affects grade under the current system.

as far as the registry sets, I am basing what I say on why a TPG would start a competitive thing like a reg set in the first place, and that is to give an incentive for a lot more submissions from collectors and I really can't think of any other. Nothing altrusitic in there at all.

**GDJMSP** · 01-07-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6StepStucky

I believe a lot of time goes into the values PCGS uses based on experience, knowledge, what a coin sold for at auction, and through various groups and individuals assistance. I don't think they pull numbers out of the air.

No they don't. They tell you this -

"The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are average dealer asking prices for PCGS graded coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists and website offerings, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Dealer specialists and expert collectors provide pricing input. Remember that the prices are just a guide, a starting point for asserting value. Some PCGS coins sell for less than the prices listed and some PCGS coins sell for more than the prices listed. "

Now, the reality of the situation is that for most coins the values listed in the PCGS price guide are the highest price ever paid for a given coin in a given grade.

spock1k · 01-08-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6StepStucky

]
Second question:
I believe they offer registry sets online for the collector. I believe there are some collectors that want the "BEST" and here is a way to show what they have that's better or what needs to be improved as well as create a need for their service and product.

True. Price is a result of creating that demand. if you had one coin and you didnt know a bette rone existed you might not shell out money for that. Marketing/sales use that all the time its in a way good to see it in numismatics.

USS656 · 01-04-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikenoodle

You create a computer composite Darryl by examining the best known examples. you measure strike characteristics and determine hub characteristics based on ideal strikes. since no coins have all of the ideal characteristics, we would look at several coins and make a composite of ideal conditions.

Mike - Have you found any examples of a computer composite of a coin that you could take dimentional data from?

**GDJMSP** · 01-04-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USS656

Mike - Have you found any examples of a computer composite of a coin that you could take dimentional data from?

That's the problem with computerized grading and why it doesn't work. They tried it a couple of times - miserable failures. They ended up with coins assigned grades that everybody disagreed with.

And now I suppose somebody will say that computers have advanced now - now it will work. Small problem with that - computers haven't advanced. Only the speed and size of the computers has changed. They can't do anything now that they couldn't do when they tried it 20 years ago. Except do it faster.

USS656 · 01-04-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

They can't do anything now that they couldn't do when they tried it 20 years ago. Except do it faster.

You don't really believe that do you???

The above statement aside - I don't know the specifics of who tried exactly what but going back to the airplane and light bulb discussion - there are advances in technology that make things possible that may not have been previously.

Mike hasn't given any specifics as to how he might come to a grade so I am not about ready to say his approach cannot work. I am willing to believe that a better method could be developed that most everyone could be happy(ier) with. What I think is that no matter what there will have to be a human element factored into the grade.

Cloudsweeper99 · 01-04-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

And now I suppose somebody will say that computers have advanced now - now it will work.

Computers have advanced now - now it will work.

But on a serious note, advances in programming and optical equipment might make it possible to assign a reliable technical grade if someone had the incentive to invest enough money into the project. That could be used as a starting point for a grader to say that a coin is authentic and was computer graded MS63 then go on to explain what characteristics should be added to the evaluation to refine the grade, if needed.

Computers are used all the time now to detect tiny defects and color variations in various materials. In a certain sense, coin grading should be much easier. It's only a matter of time...

**snaz** · 01-04-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloudsweeper99

Computers have advanced now - now it will work.

But on a serious note, advances in programming and optical equipment might make it possible to assign a reliable technical grade if someone had the incentive to invest enough money into the project. That could be used as a starting point for a grader to say that a coin is authentic and was computer graded MS63 then go on to explain what characteristics should be added to the evaluation to refine the grade, if needed.

Computers are used all the time now to detect tiny defects and color variations in various materials. In a certain sense, coin grading should be much easier. It's only a matter of time...

I could see something like that working, and then on top of that, obviously, we would WANT to pay a premium for coins with more eye appeal.

USS656 · 01-04-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloudsweeper99

Computers have advanced now - now it will work.

But on a serious note, advances in programming and optical equipment might make it possible to assign a reliable technical grade if someone had the incentive to invest enough money into the project. That could be used as a starting point for a grader to say that a coin is authentic and was computer graded MS63 then go on to explain what characteristics should be added to the evaluation to refine the grade, if needed.

Computers are used all the time now to detect tiny defects and color variations in various materials. In a certain sense, coin grading should be much easier. It's only a matter of time...

I agree

**The_Cave_Troll** · 01-08-2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikenoodle

You create a computer composite Darryl by examining the best known examples. you measure strike characteristics and determine hub characteristics based on ideal strikes. since no coins have all of the ideal characteristics, we would look at several coins and make a composite of ideal conditions.

Cave Troll, I was suggesting a grading system that is NOT run by people with a vested interest in value, thereby seperating the two. I think one corrupts the other. I realize that what I have suggested focuses almost entirely on strike. I think that much of the technical grade of a coin focuses on strike and preservation, and I wasn't suggesting a move away from that.

This is not a method for determining value (as I feel grading has become today) it is more a way to determine quality of the artifact. Value is left out of the equation.

how is grade in any way relevant outside of value?? Plus your over-emphasis on strike would skew the real world results beyond usefulness.