mikenoodle

I thought this was a excellent idea!!! Where did it go? I started a perfectly good fight just to get nominated, now I WANT MY PRIZE!!!!

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spock1k

mods give him his due- ban him

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GDJMSP

We took it away when we saw ya comin Mike

Seriously, if you at Peter's post on that nominations end on Sunday. He didn't say exactly what time on Sunday. I expect the nomination buttom will show up again tomorrow.

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kidromeo

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cesariojpn

Like all "excellent" ideas, it will have it's flaws.

USS656

Mike - gave you a vote not because you started a fight but because I agree that many people have differing opinions of something that has some meat to it. It seems to be a complex issue that everyone can learn a little something from. I appreciate everyone that added something specific to the topic - especially Doug for putting up with my comments and questions! - Thanks for the thread regardless of who wins! ~ Darryl

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mikenoodle

lol, thanks Darryl. I was only teasin... well, kinda... anyway

I learned alot in the thread and am still spun about a few things, but I hope that the meat of that discussion continues because it's fascinating stuff and the education gained in that thread can really pay off for people down the road. Honestly, I am a bit more confused now than when I started, but I am certain that it will benefit me to know more in this particular area, hence the imputus for the thread.

Doug - I am especially grateful for your continued attempts to clarify this topic. I notice that you ask people for their definitions of terms in order to get where they are coming from. What I hope is that you will continue to state what your definitions are so that we can be more clear as to what you are saying.

Ben - I love the fact that you have strong opinions and are not afraid to defend or discuss them. Don't ever give up in trying to educate those who need it.

... and I swear I knew the discussion was going to be controversial, we've been down this road before but I was hoping to keep the discussion on track and not let it devolve into a fight. I was only kidding about starting a fight in my comment.

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GDJMSP

One small thing Mike, it is not my definition. It is the definition. I only report what the pros have written pal.

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mikenoodle

The definition??? That's just a bit assuming, Doug.

Ben has also quoted the pros only to be told he is wrong. I was under the assumption that we all have knowledge to contribute and it is only through the free exchange of ideas and individual interpretations of the data that we can come to a consensus. I don't think that especially in the arena of grading that there are ANY absolute rights and wrongs.

also, I personally found the "pal" comment to be condescending when I was being sincere with my thanks to all who have participated.

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GDJMSP

And I was being sincere when I called you pal Mike. I am not being condescending in the least.

It's is not my definition, it is not a matter of being my opinion. It is written in the book that was accepted far and wide by everyone in the numismatic hobby at the time, including the pros that Bone posted links to, as being THE standards. And that is what I was trying to point out.

Something else that maybe folks need to understand, when the first ANA grading standards were written - ALL of the numismatic experts of the time contributed to that book. They all helped write it, they all agreed to what written in it. Their names are all listed. That's why I said it was the definition.

So if now, in later years they write down something different and post it on a web page somewhere - then either their memories are faulty or they have decided that they no longer agree with what they wrote 30 years ago.

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vavet

Actually, when the original 70 point grading standards were developed, not everyone agreed to ALL the aspects. When the final draft was submitted for review, several of those who had contributed objected to certain parts. The final product was a compromise by all concerned.

For someone to state what appears to be a differing opinion today may well have been their opinion all along. Further, since the ANA has abandoned their original standards, it's no surprise to see some of the original contributors taking a different view.

mikenoodle

isn't knowledge allowed to evolve over time? I know that scientific knowledge has, why not coin knowledge? Can't the experts opinions change and evolve over time as they gather more knowledge and more data without their memories being faulty? I think they no longer agree with what they wrote all of those years ago, as they have refined their theories over time.

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spock1k

Its happening on the sly and was called gradeflation till CAC caught them in the act

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GDJMSP

Of course knowledge can evolve, and of course people can change their minds. But what people can't do is change the definition of something. For if they change the definition, it is no longer that something it used to be - it is a new something that has a new definition.

In other words Mike, you can't say back in 1977 that technical grading is this and then 2007 say it is that.

It's kind of like trying to say that a brockage error is an off center strike. It cannot be, no matter how much knowledge has evolved or how much a person changes their opinion. Ya understand what I mean ?

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USS656

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP But what people can't do is change the definition of something. For if they change the definition, it is no longer that something it used to be - it is a new something that has a new definition.

That's an opinion that I completely disagree with. The constitution changes all the time and it's still called the constitution. It was also established by the very pillars of our society. Everything should have the ability to change as information changes. I do it everyday in manufacturing with process improvement and manufacturing has been around in some form for as long as people have organized themselves to make things. I do not have a copy of the ANA standards 1st edition to present. I will get a copy of the current standards very soon. If that organization has not adapted itself and it’s definitions since it’s beginning then I am glad I am not a member.

Please don’t assume that based on these or any other comments that I think I understand the intricacies of the hobby well enough to say specific changes should happen. I am saying that any system\definition should have the ability to adapt without shaking the pillars of the earth. Just because something was taught doesn’t mean it is (or was) the best way of doing something. When I am taught something – I always assume that there is a better way and someone just has not come up with it yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP It's kind of like trying to say that a brockage error is an off center strike. It cannot be, no matter how much knowledge has evolved or how much a person changes their opinion. Ya understand what I mean?

I’m sorry but this analogy is not in my opinion similar to what I/(& maybe Mike) are trying to say. I think you might compare it to a young man versus an older version of the man. The man may have been very smart to begin with but hopefully he has learned and adapted his thinking over time. He is still the same man – just smarter.

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